The war for Long Beach

[rush1]

http://www.speedtv.com/articles/auto...ndustry/10775/

So Tony George was in Long Beach sporting a hat and a four day beard. I think this confirms his interest in the race. I doubt he is showing up to lend OWCS moral support.

Miller quotes Dover Motorsports CEO Jim Michaelian here:
"I haven't had any indication from Dover as to any movement in that direction and, besides, it wouldn't be appropriate to comment on company strategy," said Michaelian. "I'm not going to speculate on anything just a few days after our event.

"Right now our intention is to honor our contract and run Champ Cars here in 2005."


Will that change? We could be heading back to court...

[Down F0rce]

This isn't the first time Tony has been seen "undercover" is it? Remember the famous "trenchcoat" story over at champweb?

And let's not forget the time he dressed as a pit babe.

He was even dressed as Paul Tracy at Surfer's last year. Think PT won that race? Nope, it was Tony George in disguise. You heard it here first.



All joking aside, I belive that Long Beach is something that could be a great scoop for the IRL. Although I'm not a fan of street races, myself.

[Testure]

There was a mention on champweb.net a few days ago about George being at Long Beach "incognito". Frankly, I thought it was another bad joke, but it's confirmed by Fred Nation in that article. Weird!

Apart from that, it's been clear for a while that the IRL would like to take over the race at Long Beach. There was a bid earlier in the year, remember? I don't think that there's any guarantee, though. There seems to be quite a lot of local good will for the existing arrangement. This could be quite interesting...

[GP Racer]

I love Pooks comment: "Our fans are very sophisticated, and they love Champ Cars. I don't think they would turn out to watch those IRL cars"

Cmon, how sophisticated do you have to be to watch what has become a spec series anyway? With 3 engine manufacturers and two competitive chassis, I'd say the IRL cars are far more sophisticated these days. Besides, could they possibly put on a more boring race than CC just did?

Back on topic, I'm not sure I want the IRL to get LB. It has a great history and all and draws big numbers, but its hardly ever a good race. The IRL is known for its close racing and finishes, and I think that should carry over to road courses that can make that happen. Also, the comparisons to CC would be endless, as the other crowd would just belittle and berate the IndyCars, no matter how they performed.

I'm sure Toyota and the dealerships that sponsor this race want the IRL to be there, so I believe they will be a main player in the future negotiations.

[rustyfan]

I too hope IndyCar stays the heck away from Long Beach. Had the old layout still been in use, however, I would have loved to see 'em there, but with the current layout I rather see 'em go somewhere else...

[Snrub]

Originally posted by GP Racer
Cmon, how sophisticated do you have to be to watch what has become a spec series anyway? With 3 engine manufacturers and two competitive chassis, I'd say the IRL cars are far more sophisticated these days. Besides, could they possibly put on a more boring race than CC just did?

No offense but that's a ridiculous arguement and I fail to see how it has any baring on anything. If it's spec it's not sophiticated? Since you brought it up I'll mention a few things; For one the IRL chasis is not as versitile. IRL cars are also slower and their brakes can't hold a candle to those in CART. IRL engines are limited to 10.7k RPMs. With only a few fairly simple changes my street engine from the 80s will rev into the 10ks.

Back on topic, I'm not sure I want the IRL to get LB. It has a great history and all and draws big numbers, but its hardly ever a good race. The IRL is known for its close racing and finishes, and I think that should carry over to road courses that can make that happen. Also, the comparisons to CC would be endless, as the other crowd would just belittle and berate the IndyCars, no matter how they performed.

While I don't necessarly disagree with your assessment of LB, the "close finishes" comment may somewhat discredit your opinion to some people. The IRL has put on genuinely decent races this year because there hasn't been the on rails, no lift "racing". The drivers have actually had to drive.

Regarding the Toyota dealers wanting the IRL where the Toyota engines are, I tend to think you're right. It may just be a matter of time.

[mountainstar]

I think if TG makes an attempt to wrest this from champcar, get ready for WW3. What I don't understand is why he spends so much time trying to pick everything off of champcar rather than doing his own thing. A lot of old timer irl fans aren't happy with the road racing bit anyways, now that they have realized that all TG wanted to begin with was CART circa 1995.

Also like Pookie said they'll have to get through the city council. And based on statements from Les Unger of Toyota if the race fell into their lap and turned irl, then fine, but it doesn't look like they are interested in making a major issue out of it. Pookie also said that 3 other manufacturers were interested in sponsoring the race, which is no surprise considering the races popularity and longevity. Remember Toyota is just a sponsor, they don't own the thing.

[N I Tram]

I think Long Beach is of mroe value to CART (due to its high attendance and historical significance) that it is to the IRL (it hasn't tended to be an exciting race, and they have many more potential road courses they can choose). This year's LB race was worse than any of the IRL races this year.

[Tim Northcutt]

Originally posted by N I Tram
I think Long Beach is of mroe value to CART (due to its high attendance and historical significance) that it is to the IRL (it hasn't tended to be an exciting race, and they have many more potential road courses they can choose). This year's LB race was worse than any of the IRL races this year.

personally, I'd rather see Dover open up the course to make it wider, and cut a deal with the ALMS to race at Long Beach....

The OWRS opener was, IMO..... BORING...I'm not a fan of "street parades"....

I was ready to turn on NAZZ-CAW-WUHR...even if it wa sto watch a guy repair a hole in the track....

Because that would have been about as exciting as the OWRS race was on another channel...

[GP Racer]

Originally posted by Snrub
No offense but that's a ridiculous arguement and I fail to see how it has any baring on anything. If it's spec it's not sophiticated? Since you brought it up I'll mention a few things; For one the IRL chasis is not as versitile. IRL cars are also slower and their brakes can't hold a candle to those in CART. IRL engines are limited to 10.7k RPMs. With only a few fairly simple changes my street engine from the 80s will rev into the 10ks.

No offense taken, but that was just an assinine statement by Pook, don't you think? Its like saying if you watch the IRL, you don't know anything about racing. Like we drink beer, and eat hot dogs, and you sip wine and eat French cheese. Ohhh la,la, you CC fans are so sophisticated!

Personally, I do think that the Lola chassis, and the Ford engine have been around long enough, that it has become somewhat unsophisticated and certainly cannot be considered cutting edge anymore. Set-up has to be relatively easy for the crews by now, as most set-up data has already been attained from past years, and all the performance has been rung from this engine, and chassis.

As for the IndyCars, its certainly more challenging and yes, sophisticated IMO, to make a Chevy powered Dallara, compete with a Toyota powered G-Force. I think any series is more challenging and more rewarding, when there are different manufacturers involved. Competition between manufacturers keeps a series fresh and exciting, as each push hard to win. Look at how important Motegi was to Honda. Comparing performance differences between the two series, is like comparing apples and oranges right now. If the IndyCars go road racing, I think they'll be as good as CC.

Especially at Long Beach!

[MLM]

Gee, GP, I love French cheese and wine And yes,I do think that was ANOTHER ONE of Pook's asinine statements (not at you, GP...the are for Pook...again!)
Didn't I just read a quote from Dario where he thought the IRL was harder to drive than a Champ Car? I find it hard to think of Champ Cars as more "sophisticated" considering they're currently racing on older specs.
As for who's more sophisticated....I won't even go there about SOME (not all, BTW) "sophisticated" Champ Car fans.

ps...GP, check your PMs

[climb]

Tg's concern about LB doesn't injvolve OWRS, whom he probably reckons being 50% stillborn and 50% moribund, but the probable competition coming from Grand-Am series, that, being taken over by Nascar, is now a dangerous competotior about hosting some traditional venues, like LB.

[indycool]

Pook and his snooty comment about sophistication was dumb. We're talking about the guy who said, "Our fans don't drink Budweiser, smoke Winstons or drive pickup trucks." Therefore, POing those who do and the potential sponsors. Remember when he said that, someone on the CART board said, "I drive a $45,000 pickup truck and drink Budweiser. I can't be a fan?"

Lost in this is that John Oreowicz, a former cart./com writer who had seen CART races at Motegi, wrote in National Speed Sport News that the crowd at Motegi was 76,000, a record for the oval in Japan.

Doubt that they drink Bud or smoke Winstons either, but they showed up to watch a race. What does "sophistication" have anything to do with it?

Oh, and the race-day crowd at Long Beach was estimated at 70,000 by the Long Beach Press-Telegram.

[Snrub]

You guys REALLY have to let that Pook statement go!

As for cutting edge, I think it depends. It's like if you tried to design the best darn paper evelope ever made without chaning the molecular structure of the paper. Is that more sophisticated than the 20+ year old space shuttle? (obviously I'm making a ridiculous comparison) They are not trying to develop the engine at all. The current engine is derived from a varient that reved into the 16k range with out the use of pneumatic valves and at one point produced in excess of 1000hp (so said Dario who was Honda's R&D driver). They took that engine, fitted a different turbo and probably camshaft so that power would be produced at a much lower operating range.

It might seem like the setups should be perfected by now, but clearly they are not. Even the top teams will have times where they do not perform, etc.

The technical competition is interesting, but do you not think Motegi would have been more interesting if Honda hadn't had a large power advantage? If this was the case the Ganassi cars probably would have won.

I never claimed CART was more sophisticated, I simply retorted. As for the Dario quote, I'm going to need some confirmation on that one and perhaps some context. Especially given rather surprising and negative comments he made at the Homestead test. As for context eg. One could argue a Nascar is harder to drive than an IRL or CART car because it's a boat.

[rustyfan]

Originally posted by Snrub
As for context eg. One could argue a Nascar is harder to drive than an IRL or CART car because it's a boat.

More like a brick with messed-up aero

Edit: w00t, 1000 posts! I'm glad it turned out to be such a meaningful contribution to the forum

[Tim Northcutt]

Originally posted by rustyfan
More like a brick with messed-up aero

A Brick that shares 17 of 33 common template measurements, regardless of the "Manufacturer"...with messed up aero....

BTW...they are up and running at IMS....

Very early, Ed Carpenter went 214.8 in his first couple of laps to be the top time thus far...

But it is still chilly here, and very windy....

[indycool]

Snrub, wasn't attacking you. Was attacking Pook's stupid statement. If you recall, "Pookies" were plentiful in '03. Nothing's changed.

[Superunknown]

pook is/was/will be big of mouth, short of action

however dallara's and gforces aren't more sophisticated, they're designed not to be, who cares how many of them there are, they have the same spec airbox and the same constricting rules.

toyotas and hondas aren't more sophisticated than the detuned cosworth, that's how sad it is, and if the IRL didn't obtain toyota's support, they'd still have ONE fuel injector per cylinder, my 1991 subaru has higher tech in its engine.

[Superunknown]

anywho, if Tony want's LB so badly, he should just open his checkbook and kill the event, just like he has to Fontana and Phoenix and Loudon and Homestead, etc.

[Testure]

Originally posted by GP Racer
No offense taken, but that was just an assinine statement by Pook, don't you think? Its like saying if you watch the IRL, you don't know anything about racing.

I read it as "people going to Champ Car races (such as Long Beach) expect to see Champ Cars" and, equally people going to Indy Car races expect to see Indy Cars.

[GP Racer]

Originally posted by Testure
I read it as "people going to Champ Car races (such as Long Beach) expect to see Champ Cars" and, equally people going to Indy Car races expect to see Indy Cars.

For Testure and Snrub, lets be honest here, TG has been taken to task for saying alot less than that, and I can only imagine the howling and crying from the other side had he made this comment.

So have some patience with us, and let us have alittle fun with this one, OK? Afterall, we're not as "sophisticated" as you guys. Excuse me a minute, I gotta go spit out my tobacco, grab another Busch Beer, and turn up the AC in the trailer, I mean, mobile home, a double-wide!durrrr...

[Tim Northcutt]

Originally posted by GP Racer
For Testure and Snrub, lets be honest here, TG has been taken to task for saying alot less than that, and I can only imagine the howling and crying from the other side had he made this comment.

So have some patience with us, and let us have alittle fun with this one, OK? Afterall, we're not as "sophisticated" as you guys. Excuse me a minute, I gotta go spit out my tobacco, grab another Busch Beer, and turn up the AC in the trailer, I mean, mobile home, a double-wide!durrrr...

Your post made me cough up my "warm Pabst Blue Ribbon" through my nose, GP Racer....

Hoooooooo Weeeeeeeeeeee

That'll set your sinuses on fire...one more hit like that and I could fly non'stop to Long beach without a plane...

[GP Racer]

Originally posted by Tim Northcutt
Your post made me cough up my "warm Pabst Blue Ribbon" through my nose, GP Racer....

Hoooooooo Weeeeeeeeeeee

That'll set your sinuses on fire...one more hit like that and I could fly non'stop to Long beach without a plane...

MMMmmm, the only thing better than a warm PBR, is a can of Schlitz, with a couple of cigarette butts at the bottom!

My mullet head hair style is looking real good these days to, its almost a shame to put my CAT hat on it, but its 6 years old now and full of grease and dirt, you know, nice and broken in, and it goes real nice with my monster-truck T-shirts! Got me a new tattoo, a picture of Ernhardt JR, sitting on top of a can of Bud. The chicks are digging it, big-time, especially when they see me in my 79 Chevy pick-up. Its got alittle rust, and smokes alittle with 350,000 miles on it, but what the hell!

Its fun being un-sophisticated!

[Tim Northcutt]

If that tatoo of "Joon-Yehr on the Bud Can" is on yer butt, it matches mine!!!


Hoooooooo Weeeeeeee

Ain't that special...

[Testure]

Maybe it's just me, but I can barely understand a single word of those last few posts from you guys Can we return to English, please?