[WEC] 2016 WEC Discussion

[Deleted]

Bahrain is full Tilke
Shanghai is full Tilke
COTA is in association with Tilke but still you get the idea from layout that...
Fuji reprofiling is Tilke
Nurburgring GP has some first sector, cosmetic work by Tilke

LM is obviously Tilke free but the only two other F1 circuits in WEC free of him are Spa and Silverstone (yes even the new conf, apparently they didn't just want him - even if the end result is about as apalling...)

Anyway, Tilke'd doesn't strictly refer to his own circuits only, but also circuits that have been turned into sterile, identically unanomyous nothingness in general...

Going again back to Monza @ theoretical March date, to my great surprise - despite "ice rain" quite still quite being the possible key therm in the mix - March along with Feb has the lowest rainfall average all year.



Temperatures... could get frostbite

[MoMedic9019]

I actually really like the idea of Monza in March.... though, I'd prefer to have the WEC at Sebring.... PC/GTD can have a race on Friday afternoon.

[Deleted]

Yeah I would actually have to agree, northern Italy looks oddly attractive in late winter / early spring, I liked how those WTCC events appeared few years back. Even in misty rain. The 'weaker' sunshine was nice looking on the cars too when the cloudcover broke off. If you cannot have Sebring for the foreseeable future, or any other really exotic season opener, it would be an interesting alternative in March.

However the five year long summer gap would still suck, and also it would only strengthen the impression of two tier championship (1] Pre-LM Run to the Race, 2] Post-LM Run to Winter Break in Preparation for Pre-LM Run )

[TF110]

I think Monza should go directly after or before LM. That way it can be a race with complete LM-spec cars. Benefits for either before/after can be named easily.

[Coach Ep]

Originally Posted by Chiana

In retrospect it's quite miracle Sebring ever even happened in 2012.

Maybe it's because when they they were drawing up the calendar ILMC was still going on for it's last breathes of air, and they had not totally lost perspective yet.

Agreed Chiana, unfortunately we'll have to get used to the idea that those days are long gone now - just like the P1 days in the US...

And yes, WEC business model is very much like F1 nowadays (and it'll only get worse), quite surprising to see FIA/ACO aim for the enormous (non) potential that is the big, so-far-uninterested-in-sportscars mass instead of aiming for the well established, loyal sportscar audience that have been showing up in great numbers at various locations (especially in North America) over many, many years.
It's all about corporate gain (aka greed) and will only last so long - again. Haven't we seen this a before...?
It's about time to send those marketing fools camping at Sebring or Le Mans to cure them once and for all!

[Acid09]

New article on 2016 calendar from Roman Wittenmeier who's usually well informed:

Teams (both manufacturers and privateers alike) are not fond of having an additional round, would like the calendar to stay as it is, only with summer gap shortened a bit.

Apparently everyone's really happy with the current calendar and sees little need for change.

There was plans to have the first round in Monza instead of the prologue but the prologue is deemed needed to create promo material for the new season and give privateers a cheap testing option.

Wittenmeier predicts based on his information and rumors that Monza will be the new host of the prologue to hold the Italians over until 2017 when a spot in the calendar might open up.

Basically everyone assumes the Ring will be back in 2016 based on the smashing success so it looks like Interlagos has drawn the short straw here.

http://www.motorsport-total.com/wec/...-15083103.html

[chernaudi]

It also helps to remember that though Audi have manufacturing facilities in Brazil, one of their sponsors is based in Brazil (Athera) and have a Brazilian driver (di Grassi), it seems that a round in South America wasn't as big a make or break deal for them (or anyone else) obviously as it was for Peugeot in 2011. Peugeot lobbied for the Brazilian round, only to have the bean counters pull the rug out from under Peugeot sport at the last minute in 2012.

I don't see Monza or Interlogos getting on the calendar soon if all the teams prefer an 8 race schedule.

It also doesn't help that so many of the current rounds are fly away races, with most of the occurring in a late season cluster in a relatively short period of time. Also, the European races are also clustered in over a two month period before the summer break.

[TF110]

Theres stories out there contradicting the statement of "pleased with 8 rounds". You could fit another european race after LM and I doubt any team would be upset about it. Same with another North American race. Thats the biggest market for probably all manufacturers involved.

[Deleted]

How much are we going to bet that in the end nothing actually changes again.

If the last four seasons have taught us anything, it's that you should expect the expected. Surprises and taking chances are not the words acknowledged in the ACO boardroom. It doesn't matter how much discussion there is about the calendar, and how many arguments there have been forth and back. The most momevement there has been within the positional calendar slotting has been where the "6 Hours of Bahrain" is located in the season, whether it's 6th or 7th or final event, and when the most unexpected actual change in your calendar is introducing Nurburgring German for the 4th season - you know the home country of the P1 factories - you know it's pretty stale (axings of petty-fight-Sebring and Fittipaldi-messed-Interlagos were foreseeable). And we don't even need to go into the Grade 1 "requirement" / exclusions of everything else for the reasons of comfort / laughable summer gaps / other issues, because getting any new event and substantial change now seems to be under the rock. 'Stability'

Maybe if COTA axes itself as many as us hope for the 2017 season, then there finally will be "forced reason" for them to seek the alternative, but even then it's just going to be Indianapolis because "we don't have any other venues in the US capable of hosting us I'm dead serious buuhuu". Well, not until F1 makes another new drome in the US as COTA replacement...

Then finally they'll add Monza/Montreal/Mexico/whatever in 2018 or something, and some Tilkering in 2021 to bring it up to 10 rounds... all "6 Hours of X" beyond LM, of course...

[Acid09]

Originally Posted by Chiana

How much are we going to bet that in the end nothing actually changes again.

Well, how much incentive is there to change anything if the competitors don't want any change?

I know this might be hard to accept but maybe these changes that seem logical and desirable to hardcore fans are not really what the competitors want?

We have heard from various sources that most of the teams in all classes see no need for change, in the latest article Enzinger goes on the record saying Porsche does not want a ninth round.

So why would Neveu take any risks and change something that might **** the teams off, only to score points with some hardcore fans?

My bottom line, I think the hardcore sports car racing fans see a much bigger need for change than the competitors or the series management so I for one am not surprised to see them having little incentive for change.

As soon as the teams want something, it usually happens: The teams (especially Porsche) asked for a German round and got it. The teams asked for the Prologue to stay, it will stay. The teams asked for the summer break to be shortened, it will be further shortened next year.

So it's not like the series isn't listening, it's more an issue of the key people not pushing for the same kind of change the hardcore fans would like to see.

[Deleted]

We don't know if Audi and Toyota had requested for German round years ago but didn't got one until now.

We don't either yet know if the summer gap is to be decreased by moving existing event forward. It'd have to be July date to truly fix the impression of it, and if you do that you cannot have another 2 month gap to the September event, but that'd needed to brought forward too.

If majority of the grid imposes calendar expansion, why do you base 50% of the grid for privateer proam teams fighting for sub championships? And if the competitor happiness is the only criteria, which of the teams wanted to race in Bahrain...

It has been said that one solution for expansion could be shorter races for most of the regular events, ie 500km or whatever. However this has been counter argumented by saying it is only gonna save like some fuel and another set of tires. Yet, yet, it was one of the methods for ELMS cutting after the 2012 fiasco. I would also love to know how you explain the sprint racing WTCC teams, most much poorer than those even in WEC, being able to have more rounds in the calendar AND on more continents year after year. Sure the touring cars are cheaper to run themselves, but there are still major logistical factors to be considered.

They shouldn't underestimate the fans. This has been major discussion point within them, and not only hardcores (one could make argument for such thing as casual even not existing for non-LM endurance racing). It has been called off putting. The championship should not be marketed in the light of / as alternative to F1.

Anyway. Even if they retained the same exact lineup of circuits for the next 20 years. Just at least alter the formats, have one 12 hourer at Fuji or wherever, something different and events besides LM that people look forward to as more than just another round of the champipnship.

Even the GT500 oneoff would have been something different, if not much. You saw how excited many were before ACO quickly shot it down? What happened to variety being the joy of sportscar racing, why cannot we have that in calendars and event formats too?

Maybe ILMC 2010-11 was just a pleasant dream.

[Coach Ep]

Originally Posted by Chiana

Maybe ILMC 2010-11 was just a pleasant dream.

Live your dreams Chiana!

[Deleted]

This is something quite overlooked. From S365 last week:

***Could the GTE-Pro class receive its own World Championship classification for drivers? Judging by recent FIA Endurance Committee meetings, the topic is under discussion for 2016. Currently, only a single set of World Champions are crowned, for LMP1, which is based on overall results.

Yes so they want that, but to put it in broader terms: We indeed need to remember that although it's a world championship, the only actual world championship is for LMP1 Manufacturers, and LMP1 Drivers. Also you have the GTE Manufacturers World Cup but it's not quite same. Every other class isn't for the title of world championship but just mere sub trophy, or sub-sub trophy in the case of two of the classifications. Which certain media people often tend to forget, interviewing some GTE-AM driver saying "so how does it feel to be world champion" or "does the possibility of being crowned a world champion make the series more attractive than ELMS/etc". All wrong of course even if they had won the respective trophies... it's merely the chance of being able to run among those fighting for world championship.

Anyway, to the point I wanted to make. And this is something I already discussed in the Rebellion thread. If LMP1 Privateers actually were (re)integrated to the same overall classifications as works cars, you know the LMP1 World Championship, they actually would be placing in actual world championship positions, instead of meaningless sub trophies nobody cares about (some even still think they are not separate! that's how well known it is). Is that not attractive sounding for Rebellion and Kolles, and other(s) coming in? Placing 4th overall in FIA WORLD ENDURANCE MANUFACTURERS CHAMPIONSHIP at the end of the season? Or do they lure themselves in the web of illusion like the above mentioned example, where they think they are world champions of privateering already...

Placing in same actual world championship class would also give it extra edge over people choosing LMP2 and it's sub classifications

[rich07]

As far as GT PRO goes it's mostly about the manufacturer winning, I was reading the comments over the weekend by the AF Corse drivers and the overwhelming aim was to win for Ferrari not their own car so to speak. Id be all for a GT drivers world championship though. Lot of kudos in that especially for GT Pro.

[Acid09]

Originally Posted by Chiana

We don't know if Audi and Toyota had requested for German round years ago but didn't got one until now.

We don't either yet know if the summer gap is to be decreased by moving existing event forward. It'd have to be July date to truly fix the impression of it, and if you do that you cannot have another 2 month gap to the September event, but that'd needed to brought forward too.

If majority of the grid imposes calendar expansion, why do you base 50% of the grid for privateer proam teams fighting for sub championships? And if the competitor happiness is the only criteria, which of the teams wanted to race in Bahrain...

It has been said that one solution for expansion could be shorter races for most of the regular events, ie 500km or whatever. However this has been counter argumented by saying it is only gonna save like some fuel and another set of tires. Yet, yet, it was one of the methods for ELMS cutting after the 2012 fiasco. I would also love to know how you explain the sprint racing WTCC teams, most much poorer than those even in WEC, being able to have more rounds in the calendar AND on more continents year after year. Sure the touring cars are cheaper to run themselves, but there are still major logistical factors to be considered.

They shouldn't underestimate the fans. This has been major discussion point within them, and not only hardcores (one could make argument for such thing as casual even not existing for non-LM endurance racing). It has been called off putting. The championship should not be marketed in the light of / as alternative to F1.

Anyway. Even if they retained the same exact lineup of circuits for the next 20 years. Just at least alter the formats, have one 12 hourer at Fuji or wherever, something different and events besides LM that people look forward to as more than just another round of the champipnship.

Even the GT500 oneoff would have been something different, if not much. You saw how excited many were before ACO quickly shot it down? What happened to variety being the joy of sportscar racing, why cannot we have that in calendars and event formats too?

Maybe ILMC 2010-11 was just a pleasant dream.

To be honest Chiana, I don't really share any of your wishes for change.

There's no need to tinker with the race format. The 6hr format is perfect for everyone, it gives teams a good bang for the buck in terms of track time and fans plenty of racing to watch for their money.

I don't see what's wrong with Bahrain, the track is nice and the night race is a cool atmospheric end to the season. It's something different after all, that's what you're asking for, right?

I also don't see what's wrong about the series setting itself up as an alternative to F1. F1 is in a historically weak era right now, time for sports car racing to make its move. The WEC already is the world's second most-important racing world championship, the only way to grow further is to close the gap to Formula One.

The WEC is great in everything that F1 lacks. Variety, openness, relevant technology, lack of bullshit. I've been reading through all the feedback from spectators at the Nürburgring and they all compared their experience to Formula One, universally praising the product the WEC offers for a very reasonable price.

The ILMC was nice for what it was, a half-baked stepping stone towards a proper world championship, which is what we have now. I see no reason for looking back, the ILMC was nowhere near as professionally set up or visible as the WEC is now. Sports car racing is finally moving out of the shadows, that's because the WEC is the way it is, not despite..

[deggis]

Originally Posted by Acid09

I also don't see what's wrong about the series setting itself up as an alternative to F1. F1 is in a historically weak era right now, time for sports car racing to make its move. The WEC already is the world's second most-important racing world championship, the only way to grow further is to close the gap to Formula One.

I think you forgot certain two-wheeler championship. WEC's two inherit things, non-driver-centric championship and long-ass races, are contradictory to mass appeal. Other than visiting the shiniest and most glorious circuits, I don't think WEC itself promotes itself as a F1 alternative at all. It mostly the fan base itself that has this obsession of comparing everything to F1, often in a biased way. Frankly this idea that WEC should or could some day become as big as F1 (or MotoGP) is naive and in my opionion is a disservice because the series should stand on its own.

.

[Gingers4Justice]

WEC will never be as big as F1, but it can make the gap smaller than it is now. Of course it's a niche sport, but it's a huge world and if you get it right, you can carve yourself a pretty big niche, like sportscars managed to do in the 1950s and 1980s.

Although it's worth noting that one of the most popular sports in the world can last as long as five days, and is essentially just 11 blokes standing in a large field with a ball occasionally being batted around.

And the only race in the calendar which Joe Public has heard of and remains world famous is four times longer than the standard WEC round, which is supposedly too long to gain a following.

[J Jay]

Originally Posted by Gingers4Justice

Although it's worth noting that one of the most popular sports in the world can last as long as five days, and is essentially just 11 blokes standing in a large field with a ball occasionally being batted around.

Forgive me for not adding much (of anything) to the WEC discussion but ...

While cricket is gaining numbers both for fans and revenue, it cannot be said that this is true across all three forms of the sport. Unfortunately the form of the sport you describe is getting less and less of this as players and fans are drawn towards the big lights of Twenty20, and in particular the monstrously lucrative IPL. The "11 blokes standing around in a large field" is still popular, but the format that nominally lasts five days is not. I say nominally because the modern tenet of "slog now, sweep later" is even reducing test cricket to a three-to-four day question of which team can collapse the quickest. It surely draws the crowds in, but they quickly ask themselves why they bother with last day tickets when they can get a "distilled" form of the same entertainment in under three hours.

I'm sure it hasn't escaped your notice that England and Australia play often (and as it is the Ashes, it makes sense), but look at how many times both those teams also play India home and abroad and how long these tours are compared to those of other national teams. Even in what is left of test cricket the "Big Three" seek to manipulate who plays who in order to maximise their profits, lest the other test and associate nations be damned. They don't need to develop their players for the ling form of the game, especially when they're only going to be drawn towards T20 anyway... Aside from when it best serves the needs of the BCCI, CA & EWCB, test cricket is slowly being eroded and becoming nothing more than a nuisance to those who seek to ride the wave of (and massively contribute to) the disappointingly decreasing attention spans so they can skim all the cream from the top.

If you want to know more about where I'm coming from, I highly recommend seeking out Death of a Gentleman, although its screen release was understandably limited. It is truly a crime that test cricket is being abandoned in favour of the shorter forms because that's where the most eyes are and therefore the most money is. If there was even the slightest chance the WEC was going the same way I would drop it faster than True Detective's second season.

Rant over, you can now continue arguing the direction the WEC should take in the future

[Deleted]

I have never seen a single minute of cricket in my life. Or rugby. But that's not to say I'm totally ignorant of "Commonwealth sports", as I do enjoy watching netball nowadays =P

Gingers, even if Le Mans was 75 Hours long and all the other races 5 hours, the regular races would still be too long for masses. LM is incomparable to anything else because of it's near 100 years old prestige and legacy

As for acid09 comment, I respectfully disagree with every notion.

Carry on.

[Coach Ep]

Originally Posted by Acid09

To be honest Chiana, I don't really share any of your wishes for change.

There's no need to tinker with the race format. The 6hr format is perfect for everyone, it gives teams a good bang for the buck in terms of track time and fans plenty of racing to watch for their money.

I don't see what's wrong with Bahrain, the track is nice and the night race is a cool atmospheric end to the season. It's something different after all, that's what you're asking for, right?

I also don't see what's wrong about the series setting itself up as an alternative to F1. F1 is in a historically weak era right now, time for sports car racing to make its move. The WEC already is the world's second most-important racing world championship, the only way to grow further is to close the gap to Formula One.

The WEC is great in everything that F1 lacks. Variety, openness, relevant technology, lack of bullshit. I've been reading through all the feedback from spectators at the Nürburgring and they all compared their experience to Formula One, universally praising the product the WEC offers for a very reasonable price.

The ILMC was nice for what it was, a half-baked stepping stone towards a proper world championship, which is what we have now. I see no reason for looking back, the ILMC was nowhere near as professionally set up or visible as the WEC is now. Sports car racing is finally moving out of the shadows, that's because the WEC is the way it is, not despite..

Not a clue what good for sportscar fans could come from the WEC moving even closer to F1 but if it (the WEC) really wants to 'close the gap' all it has to do is lure Ferrari back into the top class.

Good luck with that.

[TF110]

I donno about Ferrari joining, but some FIAT brand would be a good idea. Alfa? Maserati? There were rumors about the group wanting back in sportscars.

[Deleted]

Could someone explain again why does ELMS and WEC regs have to differ in the matter of points scoring?

Originally Posted by ELMS Sporting Regulations

"Additional" cars

Exceptionally, and depending on the interest that they might represent for the Series, LMEM may admit, for one or more Events, one or more additional cars, subject to their conformity with the applicable Technical and Homologation regulations. The additional cars and their drivers, will appear in the classification of the Event and will score points in the Series.

Originally Posted by WEC Sporting Regulations

Additional" cars

Exceptionally, and depending on the interest that they might represent for the Championship, the Selection Committee may admit, for one or more Events, one or more additional cars, subject to their conformity with the applicable Technical and Homologation regulations. The additional cars will appear in the classification of the Event, but will be invisible for the different classifications for this Championship, with the exception of:
- Those referred to in Article 16. A. h) ("Additional cars entered by the Manufacturers") ---

As added bonus WEC drivers will score points whatever races they may enter, but not teams. Why?

It's like WEC wants to do everything the difficult way. The ELMS option has even been referred to as positive change by Neveu himself...

Are they really just scared for the "protection of their customers", as in Jota Sport and likes only entering the European events yet still scoring in high end by obiliteriating the world championship entries through just being better... we all remember last year

Or maybe they really just don't want any more entries than the self imposed grid cap so that they don't have to worry about garage allocations and can safely plan them months ahead, with sparse garages allocated for storing Coke cans.

Maybe I'm too cynical again but really why cannot they just do what ELMS does. Above all would avoid the embarrasments at LM. IIRC Graham Goodwin has suggested that there would be some sort of points for overall clas position + points for WEC position thingie at LM to work as replacement for current double points for WEC position, but even though that would be slightly better, really wouldn't just regular scoring be much simpler and fairer

[TF110]

Why give points to cars not entered in the wec as a whole? Its not a regional series but a "world championship".

[Deleted]

Why give points & official classifications to regional series oneoffs / partial season entries then... exactly, to gain bigger grids

And by such logic of yours, why give points to oneoff / partial season drivers in WEC, but not to teams? If it's such elite grand world championship, shouldn't same rules apply to machine and man?

Even in US to be eglible for the LM-auto-entry-championship thingie, I think the drivers are required to do the full series. I think.

In any case, the biggest problem arises with the previously mentioned embarrasments of European/other cars wiping the floors with the world championship entries, as especially seen at Le Mans 2014, yet when you look at the official results years later you see that apparently it was some 11th or 13th placed car in class that was scored as "WEC winner" and top points scorer, passing the other cars...

ELMS does it right

Maybe Sebring 2012 could have fared better too and survived to 2013 if the parties had not demanded stupid separate classifications for all shared classes (WEC LMP1, ALMS P1, WEC LMGTE-PRO, WEC LMGTE-AM, ALMS GT etc) but instead just had everything in same pack like in ILMC 2010-2011. It was one of the primary complaints of the events, that confusing classifications made it too messy and unattractive

[TF110]

Why you ask a question if you already have your decided answer? My "logic" was a guess as to why they do the points only for full entries. You dont have to agree, but dont say its wrong or pretend your opinion is better just because you disagree. Thats not holding a discussion, thats pooing on anyone's idea different from yours.