Why CART will outlast the IRL

[jock25]

CART will last longer than the IRL for the simple reason that the League is completely reliant on the Indy 500 and has little else to offer.

Honda and Toyota joined because it fits with their commercial ambitions to win the 500 and they cannot do that without competing for a whole season in the IRL. They would have stayed in CART if Pook's offer to harmonise engine regulations had not been thrown back in his face. Honda and Toyota will leave once they have won the 500 once or twice and cemented their sales in the US, in much the same way they have left CART. And the vacuum they leave will be just as big.

I expect that the IRL fans will counter with the argument that the 500 is the biggest motorsport event in the world and will therefore keep the attention indefinitely of all these major manufacturers and sponsors they keep talking about. If this is the case, then why has it taken this long for Toyota and Honda to join the IRL? The reason is CART gives them world-wide exposure that is second only to F1.

P.S. the IRL fans should be more worried about Toyota's plans to enter the Craftsman Truck series as a route into the Winston Cup. If they can get into NASCAR they won't need CART or the IRL.

[Brian W Keske]

>>CART will last longer than the IRL for the simple reason that the League is completely reliant on the Indy 500 and has little else to offer.<<

That is exactly the reason the IRL will be around as long as TG owns the place. Even if the IRL is reduced to just 6-8 races, it will still exist.

Remember the USAC days?

[Liz]

Honda won the IRL 500 with the former Helio Castro-Neves who was a full time CART driver at the time, and they would have won it this year with a full time CART driver if PT had not been cheated out of that win by the owner of the IRL 500 who coincidentally was the only judge.

So that particular dog won't hunt.

[enemy-ace]

Originally posted by Liz
Honda won the IRL 500 with the former Helio Castro-Neves who was a full time CART driver at the time, and they would have won it this year with a full time CART driver if PT had not been cheated out of that win by the owner of the IRL 500 who coincidentally was the only judge.

So that particular dog won't hunt.

Actually Honda didn't power those cars, I believe they used chevy's or some other IRL approved powerplant.

CART will outlast the IRL because it is better, nuff said.

[macdaddy]

Ace is right. Honda's never won the 500.

Some other reasons why CART will live long and prosper...
Monterrey, Mexico City, Miami, LongBeach, Montreal, Laguna, Elkhart, Toronto, Vancouver, Surfers, Cleveland... And Chris Pook.

[cybersdorf]

Originally posted by jock25
I expect that the IRL fans will counter...

But don't expect too much, this is the CART forum

[Jay]

Cart's had it's troubles, but it's definately reached the happy side of the curve and should have an easier time getting sponsors and teams now. This has been a tough year, and next year will be too (although the on-track product should be much better), but we're past the worst, so we can look forward to the future.

If this divide ever ends it will likely end with one company swallowing the other. Tony George might buy Cart if he could, but he can't so he tries to destroy Cart through every other means. Bernie might be able to buy Cart, in which case, he could always put an offer to Tony.

[rush1]

CART plight is similar to the dark days of Tony's series around 1996 to 1998. Back then Al Unser, Michael Andretti and Gil De Ferran were replaced by the likes of Racin Gardner, Brad Murphy (a rodeo clown!) and Greg Ray. Da Matta, Franchiti and Fitapaldi might now be replaced by the illustrious Alex Young, Philip Peter and Joel Camathias - not a pretty sight.

Somewhere Tony is laughung...

[Liz]

Sorry, I figured those Honda Powered Drivers would take their engines with them to the Other Side. I don't watch that race so it was a natural mistake.

CART will live longer because its fans are world wide and the more people know about you the harder it is to erase your existence.

[Tailwind]

CART makes stars out of their top drivers. If Tony George is laughing, he's a fool...

[Rambo]

If the Indy 500 is so good, why did Toyota tackle is LAST after the World Rally Championship, Le Mans, ChampCars and Formula One? Seems pretty low-priority to me!

F1 lived without the I500. It's not the only race that was big enough to break away from the series running there - Le Mans has done that before as well. But I'm not going to slag off the Indy 500 anymore today. I just can't be bothered...

[greg.n]

I have suggested another way to deal with the Indy 500 on another thread but to be brief, CART should set up a triple crown, three 500 mile races with a million buck bonus to the driver who can win all three in one year. Let the bonus jackpot a million a year till someone wins it.

[Brian W Keske]

Like it or not, The Indy 500 ranks 'up there' with the 24 HR LeMans, F1 Monaco (or where ever), and the Daytona 500 as a major Auto race yearly.

CART could only wish they had a historical race to put in it's resume'.

I agree, the Indy 500, (for me), has taken a step way back in it's importance since the grandson basically ruined the place with the formation of the IRL; But it's still considered a major auto race by others worldwide (manufacturers/teams/drivers/sponsors/etc.), regardless of what we may think.

[Tailwind]

Greg.n I like the idea a lot. I assume these would be on speedways like Fontana. I would really like to see that happen. The only trouble I see is getting use of three speedways. Right now we have Fontana, but I think the contract is up at either the end of 2003 or 2004. Then what? The track is owned by ISC. They have aligned themselves with the IRL. I think it’s possible that ISC may not renew the contract when it expires. On the other hand, if I were a track owner, I would try to get as many races to run on my track as possible. Considering the attendance figures for the Champ Car (65,000) and IRL (15,000), as a business owner I would really work to keep the Champ Car race. I don’t know if there are any speedways that aren’t owned by ISC.

[BobbyB]

I agree with the words of Brian W. Keske, and I think that it is pointless to try to compete with the Indy 500 with any format no matter how creative it may be. The 500 is seen as a giant immoveable historical rock to most Americans, whether or not they are racing enthusiasts. The rest of Tony George's game may be contrived entertainment, and even the 500 itself seems to be less shiny than it once was. But, for better or worse, through my life (53 yrs.) the 500 has been and still is in a category unto its own as THE American flagship race. The Indy 500 will outlast Tony George or his successors- there is just that much national momentum to this end-of-May tradition.

I say get over it, leave it alone, and instead, let's use our energy to enjoy and promote the obvious advantages CART (or its revised moniker) has to offer the fans, drivers, sponsors and owners. Choose your battles wisely!

[tanalised]

I gotta agree with you there Bobby B; lets move away from the I500 and go with this name Champcar World series. Move the focus more international; forget about the american stadium syndrome

[brightline]

Originally posted by Tailwind
I don’t know if there are any speedways that aren’t owned by ISC.

Didn't Chris Pook came from Dover Downs which has a couple tracks like nashville and gateway. other than that there is Speedway Motorsports which probably wouldn't really favor any CART involvement considering they own Texas and we all know what happened at Texas. Are their any independently owned ovals bigger than 1 mile anymore?

[Liz]

I don't think the IRL 500 is that important outside the USA. And comparing it to the 24 Hours du Mans is just silly.

I am with those who say stop trying to compete with them, stop trying to find something just like their only asset only better, and move ahead into Europe and out of the USA. I would suggset making either Montreal or Mexico City our showcase race and simply drop all references to the IRL 500 at all. Either of those races will outdraw the IRL 500 and even with 2003's field being new guys the racing will be just as good.

We need to keep a few ovals just to make sure we are the best overall training ground for our drivers, but I'd get away from them as much as possible so that no more drivers would be wooed to the Other Side (they won't be qualified to drive on ovals if they dont' get much practice. See Kenny Brack's lack of success on road courses.)

I agree on the point about the 500 not being that important outside the US. I only ever watched it once ('93 Mansells first year).

Oval racing is still very much an American thing in my books. It bores me senseless (but not quite as much as the Hungaroring!!!)

[Brian W Keske]

If you don't think the Indy 500 is one of the most prestigeous races in the world, than what is/are?

I believe some of you may be sticking your head in the sand here.

Here is a (my) short list of the worlds most prestigeous races. Add to the list.

LeMans 24 Hr.
Indy 500
Manaco F1
Daytona 500
Daytona 24 Hr
Sebring 12 Hr
Goodwood
Isle of Man
Paris-Dakar Rally
Monte Carlo Rally
Baha 1000

Just a few off the top of my head. These races have a strong history, and are held in very high regard within the racing community worldwide.

I'm sorry, but I'm not sure if I can add a single CART event to this list...perhaps the closest being Long Beach. But that is it.

And my point is, as I said above, as long as TG has Indy, then there will be an IRL. And I doubt seriously the 500 is going away any time soon. The scariest part is the speculation that the Indy 500 could wind up in the France family's hands at some point and time.

[paul-collins]

In sportscars, the Indy 500 is better compared to Daytona 24h than to Le Mans. A once proud race, neutered.

It once was viewed as important enough that it was included in the points tally of the F1 WDC (although rarely contested by the F1 crowd). It has drawn European - ok, British - interlopers as well, in the way that Le Mans drew American interlopers.

Perhaps it will return to being a single, important race. Like Le Mans.

[Brian W Keske]

Could the France's Grand Am exist without the Daytona 24 Hr race?

Of course it could. But the Daytona keeps the darn series viable. Manufacturers are providing support in order to stick this race involvement/winning 'in their cap'.

Don't even get me started about the Grand Am fiasco....reminds me to much of the IRL fiasco.

Just because we don't agree on the level of these races importance, they are still important in the racing community, both here, abroad, and world-wide....to some degree. But they are the 'benchmark' races none the less.

Anwer me one question....Why the defection of the CART teams back to to Indy 500/irl?

The CART teams should have never went back, and established their own without it. It has only made the IRL more viable.

[Rambo]

Ask the Aussies the most important race - You missed out the Bathurst! Mount Panorama is to them what the Brickyard is to you, or the IOM TT is to bikers.

The Bathurst is also an institution, surviving and continuing no matter what rules the cars run to when they go there.

Also, don't forget the Macau GP - still seen as the place where young talent can crown their 'aprentice' career before moving up to the big leagues. Maybe that has slipped a bit in the last couple of years, but where else do drivers from individual national championships come and compete in a one-off event on the far side of the world?

There are plenty of big races out there but only Americans seem to think the Indy 500 is something extra special. OK, it rangs up in the top 10, but it isn't number one in many people's eyes.

[BootsOntheSide]

I'd've defiantely added the Belgian Grand Prix to that list (thank you Belgian Government, when will politicians stop poking their noses into things they don't understand or have any passion for?), and The Italian one, and how about Laguna Seca in CART. More prestige than Goodwood and Paris-Dakar have had for many years. The list would been spot on- in about 1970.

[Rambo]

Well, if Spa does end up running a CART race, yeah, why not? But you could add Long Beach then, since that has been F3000, F1 and IndyCars - the event has continued as an entity in its own right. I suppose the same could be said of the Dutch TT at Assen, now part of the Moto GP season.

Monza, yes, has been going since 1922, and is certainly a classic venue. Whether the Italian GP counts I don't know. Pau is another one that has been going (and is IIRC like Macau, an F3 race now) since the year dot, but unlike Monaco, is not a name most people would think of.

Donnington is the first British road racing circuit, has a history of classic GP racing before the war, has always been THE place for bikes (I still can't believe the SBK event has gone to Silverstone) and has run a modern F1 race. It is a top-class venue capable of running any world championship events except F1. But there is no 'classic' race at Donnington - neither is there at Laguna Seca - undoubtedly a very fine and spectacular racetrack.