'10 LMS Round 2 • Spa-Francorchamps • May 7th-9th

[Splendid Cat]

Originally Posted by GTfour

Losing gracefully is a virtue...

Show me a good loser and i'll show you a loser, as has often been said.

[Victor_RO]

Originally Posted by Purist

And even if the radiators themselves have protective screens, what happens when those screens trap too much crap?

We know that the '08-spec Peugeot used to trap a lot of dirt into the radiators, and in '09 the '08-spec Pesca Pug was pulled into the garage for the filters to be changed some time during the night... if I can remember correctly off the broadcast, that was only about 2 laps before it was barrel-rolled into oblivion. It did lose a few minutes and a place with the filter-changing stop.

[Bentley03]

Originally Posted by HORNDAWG

What a load of patooty! After 6 hours of racing Audi was still on the lead lap and on the podium. Beat/lost? Sure! Dominated, as some here seem to imply, NOT!






L.P.

I agree, but I also disagree. The McNish/Capello/Kristensen car was in no way dominated, and with the appropriate aero package, may even have won, given their perceived superior pit strategy, although the stop for intermediates towards the end turned out to be a wrong one. Just a last chance throw of the dice, perhaps.

But, as a team, Peugeot dominated Audi, completely. Why did Audi take the decision to race with an inappropriate aero package? Where was the support for the #7 from the other two cars? Why did Audi ditch Biela/Pirro/Werner?

Audi are a one car team, and despite the pedigree of the drivers they have brought in, those drivers are either not good enough or are not being given a chance to shine through lack of seat time under race conditions. Or, is the undoubted talent and experience of the #7 crew flattering to deceive the inadequacies of the R15/R15+?

[henk4]

Originally Posted by Bentley03

I agree, but I also disagree. The McNish/Capello/Kristensen car was in no way dominated,

Even that car fell way back during the first half hour of the race, until the SC came for the Bruichladdich accident. I have not heard a proper explanation for that so far. It really looked like McNish was still asleep or something. Only after the safety car period he decided to go for it, possibly trying to make the most of the new situtation where he had pitted and none of the Pugs. This is actually one of the Pug team mistakes, where they could have easily called in one of the two leading cars, just to keep in sinc with the only really menacing Audi.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by Holt

I think its time to accept the 908 is the quickest sports car in the world right now and has been for 3 years. Its beaten the R15 3 straight times in dominating fashion with 3 straight 1-2 finishes.

You purposely forget Paul Richard and I would not call the Petit Le Mans victory "dominating"

Originally Posted by Holt

Who says or what data says the 908s would drop off 1-2 seconds and be on Audi pace if they ran a low downforce setup? I'll be very interested in seeing the trap speeds as I dont think the R15s had the 908s covered comfortably.

You can find some numbers in http://www.lemans-series.com/fr/s52_...f&id_circuit=4

• Free practice 3:
  • #9 Audi: 310 km/h
  • #7 Audi: 309 km/h
  • #8 Audi: 308 km/h
  • #1 Peugeot: 304 km/h
  • #2 Peugeot: 304 km/h
  • #4 Peugeot: 302 km/h
  • #3 Peugeot: 301 km/h
• Qualifying:
  • #7 Audi: 307 km/h
  • #9 Audi: 307 km/h
  • #8 Audi: 307 km/h
  • #1 Peugeot: 303 km/h
• Warmup:
  • #8 Audi: 310 km/h
  • #7 Audi: 308 km/h
  • #9 Audi: 307 km/h
  • #4 Peugeot: 299 km/h
• Race:
  • #8 Audi: 313 km/h
  • #7 Audi: 313 km/h
  • #9 Audi: 311 km/h
  • #2 Peugeot: 290 km/h

Numbers for the other Peugeots are missing. I assume the trap speed during the race for #2 is wrong (too low). However the numbers of practice 3 show that Audi had a small top speed advantage.

Originally Posted by Holt

A R15 did manage to pass one 908 at the end of the camel straight but the 908 had to lift at the top of eau rouge because of a GT2 car. The other times the 908 could stay tucked up under the R15s gearbox down the camel straight. It couldn't make the pass because of the drag, but it certainly lost little to no time.

Look at http://youtube.com/watch?v=m6nZ0cBBMJ8#t=1m04s Capello clearly pass Bourdais because of higher top speed.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by Purist

Also, the third Audi, even though it had over five hours to make up the gap, couldn't get back past five of the LMP2s.

The repairs on the #8 Audi after the warmup crash toke 30 minutes and they lost 8 laps. After 4 hours they had to repair the floor which toke another 11 minutes (losing around 4-5 laps). Without this second longer pitstop they would have probably got past the all LMP2 cars.

Peugeot was very lucky to rebuild the #2 for free during the red flag and get it on the podium.

[GT6]

I love all the differing opinions, sportscar racing fires the imagination and not one mention of cheating or unfair advantages, just plain competition in four weeks time the big one but some how I expect the discussions will continue beyond that.

However dispite the red flag and all the other incidents a brilliant race.

[racerspics]

Some Pics are online.

Album friday free practice

Album sunday race


have fun
Ralf

[911targa]

ford finished 1-2-3 in GT1class,both aston GT cars came back with DNF,i wont be surprise if they do it again at LM,but i will be surprise if GT1winner do more laps than GT2winner after 24h.

[sssssssss]

now looking at the post-race data, i have to say i wouldn't jump anymore to the conclusion that the peugeot is the faster car and that they really 'dominated' audi in this race, as it might have looked like at first glance. with the r15 being that much faster in top end speed than the 908, it's obvious that the setup was much lower in downforce than that of the 908, and even so the best lap times are very close - and in qualifying, the r15 has the fastest 1 & 3 sectors, with peugeot only having the middle sector, where the spa circuit becomes slow and technical, requiring as much downforce as possible. it is also more and more obvious, to me, that despite what they said prior to the race, peugeot came to spa to win the race, while audi really came to continue their testing program, as they said. after paul ricard and spa now and after looking at the race data, i really feel like the r15 is the faster car this year, but i'm also feeling le mans will be very very tough and very very interesting.

[Bentley03]

Audi's post race press release (courtesy of Endurance-Info.com).

[GT6]

Loads of excuses but they all seem to have some confidence in the car for Le Mans, so lets not count the Pug chickens to quickly

[Purist]

Gwyllion, I'd seen the videos and the top-end speed figures listed in the pdf from the race weekend.

Note, however, in that video, that the Peugeot was balked by a slower car, the Audi had the advantage of a slipstream, AND the Audi still only just managed to squeeze in ahead of the Peugeot at Les Combes.

Who's to say that, at least in the practice sessions, the Audis weren't purposefully trying out the cars in the slipstream to see how well they went in that situation? Doing that sort of running intentionally by itself could explain the top-end speed differential. During qualifying, the difference was only 4km/h. Also, the Peugeots were running out front for a good part of the race. Factoring in the safety cars, and the fact that their front two cars weren't always flying close formation, and they probably had fewer instances during the race where the cars were in a slipstream situation that would allow them to set those ultimate top-end speeds.

And in that video, the Audi sure as heck did NOT blow by the Peugeot, much less with 15mph in hand. It didn't even look like he had 5mph on the Peugeot. It's also interesting to note that the run from La Source to Les Comes is now (as of the 2007 revisions) 2100-2150m, while the run from Tertre Rouge to the first of the Mulsanne chicanes is 1850m.

I'm not inherently anti-Audi, but at some level, I am fracking tired of them always running away with things. And against that record, this race, for Audi, wasn't that impressive. The only dominating performances I've ever truly enjoyed were Al Unser Jr. in Indy Cars, Dale Earnhardt in NASCAR, and Penske Racing in Indy Cars. I'm tired of Audi doing it in LM sportscars. I'm tired of Ganassi doing it in Grand-Am and Indy Cars. I'm tired of Jimmie Johnson doing it in NASCAR. I'm tired of Jamie Whincup doing it in Australian V8 Supercars. I was tired of it when Michael Schumacher did it in F1.

[henk4]

for those who don't know how the sectors are built up, the second sector, where the Pug was faster, comprised about 55% of the full lap, so the Audi being faster in sectors one and three, is not as decisive as one may think.

[henk4]

Originally Posted by Bentley03

Audi's post race press release (courtesy of Endurance-Info.com).

the appropriate word for that is: "bo....ks"
Audi blaming the wet track for having lost the race.....
the full version of the word I wrote above came back in little stars....

[Aysedasi]

And I never realised that 'boondocks' was caught by the auto-censor.....

[sssssssss]

Originally Posted by henk4

for those who don't know how the sectors are built up, the second sector, where the Pug was faster, comprised about 55% of the full lap, so the Audi being faster in sectors one and three, is not as decisive as one may think.

Well, the fact that the second sector is about as long as the other two combined is quite obvious if looking at the times needed to cover them, BUT basically it starts exactly after the top speed point of the track, where the slow and medium-speed corners begin, and it ends exactly before the second fast part of the circuit begins. ALL the high-speed points of the Spa track are in sectors 1 and 3, and all the slow and medium corners - except the bus stop and the Source - are in sector 2. It wasn't decisive because they didn't take pole, but then again, the setup thing is quite important to notice.

[henk4]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

Peugeot was very lucky to rebuild the #2 for free during the red flag and get it on the podium.

I think you misunderstood the red flag conditions. All cars were left on the track under parc ferme conditions, which meant that nobody except the driver was allowed to touch the car. It was the case that only the driver could start the car, and if that would fail the car was out. When the read flag came out I was in the Spyker box, very close to Peugeot and to the best of my memory, there was no Peugeot in the box at that time. Perhaps you could show the lap charts which would indicate that #2 went into the box just before the red flag came out.

[henk4]

Originally Posted by sssssssss

Well, the fact that the second sector is about as long as the other two combined is quite obvious if looking at the times needed to cover them, BUT basically it starts exactly after the top speed point of the track, where the slow and medium-speed corners begin, and it ends exactly before the second fast part of the circuit begins. ALL the high-speed points of the Spa track are in sectors 1 and 3, and all the slow and medium corners - except the bus stop and the Source - are in sector 2. It wasn't decisive because they didn't take pole, but then again, the setup thing is quite important to notice.

so where is La Source?
Edit, Ah you just edited your post

[sssssssss]

hehe, just corrected that in my post, as you were writing.

EDIT: also, the length of sectors 1 and 3 too is actually bigger than it seems on the timing, because it's covered with much higher speeds than that of sector 2.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by henk4

I think you misunderstood the red flag conditions. All cars were left on the track under parc ferme conditions, which meant that nobody except the driver was allowed to touch the car. It was the case that only the driver could start the car, and if that would fail the car was out. When the read flag came out I was in the Spyker box, very close to Peugeot and to the best of my memory, there was no Peugeot in the box at that time. Perhaps you could show the lap charts which would indicate that #2 went into the box just before the red flag came out.

Please explain to me how a car that did this, can finish on the podium in the same lap as the race winner without repairs during the red flag?

Anyway, download http://www.lemans-series.com/fr/s52_...f&id_circuit=4, go to page 82, look at the 3th sector of lap 49. That is when the #2 Peugeot crashed. Next look at lap 50. That is the first lap after the red flag. Quod erat demonstrandum

[Holt]

Originally Posted by Purist

Finally, someone made a commen earlier about the Astons hitting a brick wall at top-end because of higher drag up there than the diesels. Having watched the opening laps from Paul Ricard, I cannot concur with this view. The R15+ could not pull much of anything on the Aston on Lap 2 when it was six of fewer car lengths behind from the start of the Mistral. The Audi made the pass on Lap 3, but this was when it started out only 2-3 lengths back, and it took the Audi at least the first half of the Mistral, in the tow of the Aston, to finally pull out and make the move. And even then, the Audi didn't blow by, and the Aston was still right on the Audi's tail approaching Signes.

radiolemans was interviewing a Aston Martin driver and he said they were encountering alot of drag at their top end at Paul Ricard, which would explain to me why they got to 32x kph so quickly but seemed to hit a brick wall. The same driver said the high speed drag wouldn't be such a problem at Spa because no straight allows you to go that fast so they would not hit the wall there.

Originally Posted by gwyllion

You purposely forget Paul Richard and I would not call the Petit Le Mans victory "dominating"

Paul Ricard wasn't vs the factory squad and the Peugeots were dominating in qualifying at Petit by 1.3 seconds, which is absolutely tremendous considering the lap time is only 66 seconds. However rain came and saved Audi like it did at Le Mans '08.

Also thank you for the sector speeds. Audi had about a 5kph gap, but aero performance at 320+kph at will determine top speed at Le Mans. The R15+ did fine at Paul Ricard on the long 320kph+ straight, so I say it certainly will be quicker in a straightline at Le Mans this year then the old R15, but handling is still a question. Will it handle in the Porsche curves. Will it be stable under braking.

Everyone is wondering why Audi didn't run high downforce bodywork, one of the radiolemans guys said he believed if audi had high downforce body work they would have brung it.

Originally Posted by gwyllion

Look at http://youtube.com/watch?v=m6nZ0cBBMJ8#t=1m04s Capello clearly pass Bourdais because of higher top speed.

From the #7 Audi's onboard you can clearly see Bourdais tap the brakes after eau rouge because of the LMP traffic and ruin his momentum. Anyways though we won't really know who has top speed advantage until Le Mans, but I sincerely expected the Audis to sweep around the draggy 908s often, but maybe they were just too slow to get close enough.

The 908 has been the quickest sportscar since it appeared in 2007, only because it was as fragile as humpty dumpty because it was such a new project did it not show great race pace at the 24 that year.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by Holt

The 908 has been the quickest sportscar since it appeared in 2007, only because it was as fragile as humpty dumpty because it was such a new project did it not show great race pace at the 24 that year.

Sorry, but you are ignoring a lot of flaws in the early days of the Peugeot program: bad strategy, slow pit work (ACO helped them a bit with 2 air guns), lots of crashes, drivers not handling traffic that well, difficulties in the wet, ...

[Purist]

The statement was about the car itself. As such, team errors, driver difficulties, etc are irrelevant.

[henk4]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

Please explain to me how a car that did this, can finish on the podium in the same lap as the race winner without repairs during the red flag?

Anyway, download http://www.lemans-series.com/fr/s52_...f&id_circuit=4, go to page 82, look at the 3th sector of lap 49. That is when the #2 Peugeot crashed. Next look at lap 50. That is the first lap after the red flag. Quod erat demonstrandum

Thank you, then I obviously missed the incoming Peugeot. And as far as I know the rules, I think after the red period positions were resumed as they where one (or two?) laps before the actual flag came out, so the Pug obviously disappeared under the radar.

Revealing by the way is also page 80, which gives the best sector times during the race, whereby two peugeots were faster in ALL three sectors.