[LM24] Another Carbuncle at Le Mans?

[Aysedasi]

I don't know if anyone else has posted anything about this (if they have, I can't find it), but according to this week's Autosport, next year's Le Mans will see a new left/right corner on the run down from the Dunlop Bridge to the Esses. Not a severe corner, I accept, but an unnecessary one. The explanation given is that the corner is needed to provide more run-off area for two motorbike fixtures on the Bugatti circuit.

The ACO's sports director expressed the view that the circuit change would be "fantastic" and "just like the Porsche Curves". Well perhaps I can express the view that the track change is unlikely to be "fantastic" and is patently obviously (from the artist's representation in Autosport) nothing like the Porsche Curves.

Once again, the great circuit is going to ba marred by change. Moreover, this is a part of the circuit which has remained essentially unchanged since the Dunlop to Tertre Rouge section was incorporated back in 1932. What makes it worse, is that the change is apparently not brought about by a need created by the great race itself, but for motorcycle events on the Bugatti. I don't want to upset our motorcycle fans, but Le Mans IS the 24 Hours and the circuit should not be changed in this way and for these reasons.

[Heeltoe6]

i had not heard this but I agree, it is terrible. too many circuits have been emasculated in the name of safety, but at what price?

[Aysedasi]

Aside from the two of us then, I guess everyone else is happy at the prospect......?

[Kpy]

Originally posted by Aysedasi
this is a part of the circuit which has remained essentially unchanged since the Dunlop to Tertre Rouge section was incorporated back in 1932.

Bollux Senna. Maybe you've been asleep, but that part of the circuit has changed a great deal in that time.
Perhaps you've been there every year since '32 and can prove me wrong, but a glance at a few 'photos from the '50s onwards will show you how the Dunlop exit (once high speed) to the esses (once narrow and needing great precision) now an open flowing section, has changed completely - for the worse I feel. Maybe the new chicane will not affect the 24 hrs circuit at all, but the horrid Bugatti bit makes the 24hrs affordable for you and all who arrive in May and June. So don't take the **** out of 'bike and truck racing, or French national races, all of which subsidise your trips to La Sarthe.

Bad things have happened at LM - no White House now, just silly Porsche bits, two horrible chicanes on the Hunaudières, no proper Mulsanne corner, stupid run-off at Indianapolis where no-one has ever been off, Ford chicanes, and worst of all the nasty grandstand complex above the pitlane, cutting off the view of what might be happening below. Last year they were busy putting up temporary stands and obliterating the memory of some french heros whose names were connected to the stands.
Sod it - one more bad change and I'm spending a weekend in Spain instead.

[Aysedasi]

Although I do nod off occasionally, Kpy (never during a Le Mans), I wasn't in that particular land on this occasion. I wasn't referring to the Dunlop Curve alterations (and yes, I was there when it WAS a curve). I was referring to the alterations planned about which I spoke. I deplored at the time the emasculations of the track at Dunlop and on the Mulsanne in particular and fervently hoped at the time that when the ACO and FISA had finished their little "war" back at the beginning of the '90s, we might see the straight back in some of its glory. Sadly not.

I'm not quite sure why your tone sets out to be so offensive - I would have thought we were thinking along similar lines as far as change for the sake of change is concerned. (Besides, my opening paragraph clearly refers to changes to the stretch FROM the Dunlop Bridge to the Esses (not the track before the Bridge).

I wasn't intending to take the p*** out of bikes or trucks and I apologise if that's the impression I gave. Whether you're offended or not, the fact is , like it or not, we wouldn't have a full Le Mans circuit (whether spoiled or not in your (and my) opinion) for just bikes and trucks to race on.

[iucrmh]

I was worried at first to hear that the circuit was to be modified at the entrance to the Esses. A chicane would certainly have been an affront. However as I read it, the proposal is a left right sweeping curve, which may just work. I will reserve judgement for now. I think the worst modification in the last 20 years was the Dunlop Chicane, and not the Mulsanne chicanes.

[Kpy]

Originally posted by Aysedasi


I'm not quite sure why your tone sets out to be so offensive - I would have thought we were thinking along similar lines as far as change for the sake of change is concerned. (Besides, my opening paragraph clearly refers to changes to the stretch FROM the Dunlop Bridge to the Esses (not the track before the Bridge).

Didn't mean to be offensive at all. Quite the reverse.

Sure - exit from Dunlop Bridge to Esses is something like it was, but they used to come over the brow on full chat and down a much narrower piece of track to a far more difficult entry (to the esses). At Silverstone the track may well be the same from exit of Woodcote to entry to Copse. So :confused: :confused:

Think we agree LM is gradually becoming changed for the worse. Difference is you'll keep going there. I've given up on every current GP circuit in Europe and now go to "nostalgie" meetings instead.
Must owe you a beer (maybe your Tourists too) - came looking for you in the rain in June and failed.

[FastJoel31]

Originally posted by Aysedasi
we might see the straight back in some of its glory. Sadly not.

Thats right they put the chicanes in to slow down "the big cats" from going 240 (mph). Nowadays the cars wouldn't make it up to that fast, so I just think its a waste of tarmac.

[Aysedasi]

You must have caught me at an uncharacteristically sensitive moment, Kpy! (I recognised the moniker, of course - which was why your tone surprised me!). Yes, I'll be there next year, spouse and finance permitting and with luck I'll be there every year thereafter until I'm physically incapable of making the trip. As I said, I deplore the track changes, none made recently have made the great circuit better - but it's as much the atmosphere that draws me back every year - the circuit, the cars and the drivers will change, but the atmosphere is so addictive. As most of you will gather by now, I just love it.....!!

[Kpy]

Originally posted by Aysedasi
You must have caught me at an uncharacteristically sensitive moment, Kpy

Thought the same of myself !!

See you there in June 2002 !!

[Aysedasi]

Mais oui, monsieur!

(I'll keep an eye open for you for that beer - or maybe even a (plastic) glass of bubbly!).

[paulzinho]

NO MORE CHANGES PLEEEEASE!!!!!

[Aysedasi]

You'd better get there quicker than you intended, Paulzinho - the way things go, by the time you've finished your studies the ACO could be using the Alain Prost kart track for the 24 hours (and I don't mean the 24 hour kart race!!!).

[paulzinho]

That is the way they're heading!!!

[cybersdorf]

I guess I'm the only one who isn't really worried by these changes. Race tracks evolve, the challenge remains the same. Another left-right (or is it right-left?) doesn't make winning the vingt quatre heures any easier. Nor did the "rallentiseurs", or the addition of the Porsche curves, or the elimination of Maison Blanche, or the paving of the roads

Besides, this is nothing compared to what they're going to do to Hockenheim...

[FastJoel31]

Originally posted by cybersdorf
Besides, this is nothing compared to what they're going to do to Hockenheim...

Yeah it's like getting both legs amputated

[Aysedasi]

Did you sign the Hockenheim petition, cybersdorf?

[cybersdorf]

Originally posted by Aysedasi
Did you sign the Hockenheim petition, cybersdorf?

Mais oui... - and a lot more people should. Last time I looked, it was only 612.

The petition can be found here: http://www.petitiononline.com/hockf1/

And to have a look at what they intend to do to the circuit, go here: http://www.racingcircuits.net/German...nheim2002.html

[Dr. Austin]

In just the few years I have followed racing, I have seen the demise of the traditional LeMans start, White House corners, the Dunlop curve (now curves) and of course, the Mulsanne. The 6 kilometer Mulsanne just had to go as it was unacceptably dangerous. Any mechanical failure at those speeds and it was all over. But it sure wasn't as dangerous at the end of it's 6K life as it was before they had guardrails.

The chicanes just weren't the right answer. They destroyed the character and flow of the circuit, plus put more unecessary stress on the brakes, suspension and gearboxes, not to mention the drivers. They are stupid chicanes that the drivers universally say are not fun to drive. Perhaps a section of sweeping corners would be better. Everyone likes driving the Porsche corners.

It was bad enough the cars no longer pop over the crest of the Dunlop hill at full chat. Now it looks like the run down to the esses will be changed as well. A huge part of the LeMans mystique is the famous parts of the circuit that are slowly disappearing. Much of the race's flavor is it's history and the landmarks are part of that. Lose the landmarks, and it is just another race. Another Malibu Grand Prix, another Hungaroring.

I have no problem with additional runoff areas, but I despise the circuit's challenge and character being changed. Leave the fast, challenging corners alone, just move the trees back (screw them, they are just trees). Take out the Dunlop esses and let the drivers do something satisfying again. Put white house back, just move the house off the racing line. And make the co-driver run across the track and switch on the ignition so the drivers can be belted in and waiting for the new traditional LeMans start. Make it LeMans again.


No sport has ever had the rich tradition and history as auto racing does. It is this that sets it apart from other mere sports. Throw this away and sportscar racing will be no better than baseball. or wrestling.

[cybersdorf]

Originally posted by Dr. Austin
In just the few years I have followed racing, I have seen the demise of the traditional LeMans start,[/qb]

You have been following racing for a while, then - that was abandoned the year I was born...

[qb]Lose the landmarks, and it is just another race. Another Malibu Grand Prix, another Hungaroring.[/qb]

Tell you what, they could actually run it on the Circuit Bugatti, and it would never be "just another race". Simply because a 24hr race is, by nature, something special.

[qb]...And make the co-driver run across the track and switch on the ignition so the drivers can be belted in and waiting for the new traditional LeMans start. Make it LeMans again.[/qb]

Objection, your honor. As much as it is a part of that races heritage, we really don't need that anymore these days. Anyways, the Indy start is fine with me. Like everything else, races evolve, and they should. The run across the track business is history, and that's the way it should stay. Le Mans isn't any "less Le Mans" because we don't make drivers do that anymore.

[qb] No sport has ever had the rich tradition and history as auto racing does.

Well I don't know... - the automobile has only been around for a little over 100 years

Look at it this way: the first Olympians competed naked. Would today's Olympic Games be any more Olympic if we disallowed clothes again? I don't think so.

Besides, if Vince McMahon can be trusted, the WWF has a rich history...

[racer69]

Are these changes set in stone, or do they still need approval. I can't imagine how they would fit in this left-right sweep in, it will get awfully crowded down there, whats next, they will bypass Maison Blanche completely. Maybe if they are going to put in these new sweeps they can get rid of the Dunlop chicane.

And what is the White House, and what happened to it.

[cybersdorf]

Originally posted by racer69
And what is the White House, and what happened to it.

White House is Maison Blanche.

[paulzinho]

Could someone please tell me more about maison blanche, i've heard it mentioned quite often without actually knowing what it is.

Anyone know a site with a map of how the track has evolved over the years?

Changes arent always for the best, drivers should be the judge of what is and what isn't safe. If they think its dangerous, don't race but they should remember motor racin is dangerous and that i guess adds to the thrill, the fact that your right on the edge, walking a thin line. With the Mulsanne they should have kept it, ok its fast but the drivers could slow down if they felt they were going too fast after all they are the ones who are supposed to be in control. Racing needs brave corners and moments requiring commitment. The kink has been destroyed by the chicanes and what my Dad described as one of the best moments in motor racing is gone.

Ok 24hour races are special but what separates Le Mans from something like Daytona is that Le Mans is a challening circuit which requires incredible skill and bravery. Take that away and its just like the rest of them. As for spectators we want to see cars going fast, slipstreaming not starting and stopping every 400m so they can negotiate a stupid incredibly slow left right turn. Well I don't anyway.

Hockenheim is an example of where money rules and that shouldnt be so. What they want to do to the track and their reasons for it are absolutely disgusting. I don't particularly like the chicanes there (as you may have guessed) but hockenheim was different and from next year it will be the same as everthing else. will Spa and Monza follow the same fete? I hope not but who knows what the FIA and Bernie will do.

[cybersdorf]

Originally posted by paulzinho
Anyone know a site with a map of how the track has evolved over the years?

voilá: http://www.racingcircuits.net/France/LeMans.html

[paulzinho]

Merci beaucoup monsieur!!!