Aus GP Marshals?

[PVDA]

Originally Posted by rescue dude

I think your missing the point, and that is that you should NEVER have to cross a live track.

By doing so you put your life and that of the driver's in danger.

You are correct but I think in this case you will probably find the track wasn't hot at the time and the cars were entering pit lane back at the previous corner (remember earlier debate on the Course Cars).

It's been quoted in the general non motorsport press here in Melbourne that Shuey's off was at 240km/h so considering he crossed the track about 100m further down the cars would be passing a little quicker than that.

We did an experiment at an early Adelaide GP (late 80's) and on an open track timed how long it took to run to various distances across the track and then when the F1's came out to play worked out how long it took for them to arrive from the time you see them come into view at the previous blind corner. From memory we had time to take about three steps before being theoretically cleaned up by the car.

Of course Button could've picked a better spot to stop (like just after the finish line) but then would've been penalised for the required engine change as the engine block had a hole you could fit a size 10 boot in according to witnesses in pit lane after the race.

Oh, by the way, all Australian marshals at "normal events" are encouraged to take an extinguisher with them to any crahed or stopped car on the just in case theory. At the F1GP if a non fire marshal touches an extinguisher they risk getting their hands cut off on the excuse they aren't dressed properly. I've got a fire grading on my marshals licence and have probably put out more race car fires than 75% of the people acting as fire marshals at the GP but that's another story.

[JABWOA]

Just as a side note (as I'm not sure if those firies where part of our crew or down at T16) but all marshals at S/F where put through the exercise PVDA mentioned (we did 15 seconds to the centre of the track and back while an F1 car exited T16 and got to us in 9secs) just to ensure we all understood what getting on a race track ment (bearing in mind we had race vehicles on an open track at times.)

[1200Datto27]

Originally Posted by JABWOA

Just as a side note (as I'm not sure if those firies where part of our crew or down at T16) but all marshals at S/F where put through the exercise PVDA mentioned (we did 15 seconds to the centre of the track and back while an F1 car exited T16 and got to us in 9secs) just to ensure we all understood what getting on a race track ment (bearing in mind we had race vehicles on an open track at times.)

I was the person volunteered to do that test at s/f last year and we worked out that for me to be able to pick up the mythical piece of rubbish when the F1's where at race pace, I needed a clear track from two corners back.

I have looked at a video taken from the pick exit corporate stands (where I was this year) and the fireys did cross the track after the course car (BMW) had passed them, the cars that can bee seen in the background are actually on the pit entry road.

[275 GTB-4]

[QUOTE=scorch]

Originally Posted by rescue dude

I think your missing the point, and that is that you should NEVER have to cross a live track.QUOTE]

Nope the point I was making was that you can and sometimes it is necessary to cross a live race circuit. BUT it has to be last resort AND awareness of what is going on is the key.

If i was talking to a trainee I would say never cross a live race circuit but for an experenced marshall who can see far enough up the circuit to allow sufficient time to cross, and there is a need to cross ie fire, unconsious driver then I see no problem with it. From the TV pictures I though both marshalls showed both these qulaities.

Unfortunately, there are very few places at Albert Park where you might ever safely have time to cross.....no cars in sight is meaningless with the speed of F1s. TV forshortens distances and can give the wrong impression of speed and distance. Very scary stuff I thought.

[CombeMarshal]

I think were all missing the Point here, Comon sense should come into it, for instance, from Avon rise at combe you can see all the way to the exit of Bobbies, Best part of a Mile, I would question coming back across a live track though if you can get a safe distance from the track.
Also, don't forget it is almost as dangerous working track side especially as any car there is likely to be out of control anyway.

In the End It all comes down to the reduction in numbers of Marshals, in the Ideal world they would be 50 meters apart on both sides of the track, but thats bever going to happen!

[CombeMarshal]

Originally Posted by PVDA

Oh, by the way, all Australian marshals at "normal events" are encouraged to take an extinguisher with them to any crahed or stopped car on the just in case theory. At the F1GP if a non fire marshal touches an extinguisher they risk getting their hands cut off on the excuse they aren't dressed properly. I've got a fire grading on my marshals licence and have probably put out more race car fires than 75% of the people acting as fire marshals at the GP but that's another story.

Were the same, we always bring a bottle (sounds like a party!) no matter what the incident but we are all trained in the art of fire killing!

[PVDA]

Originally Posted by CombeMarshal

we always bring a bottle

Yes we Australians are encouraged to do that when attending a party, in fact we are encouraged to bring several bottles with us

[PipSqueak111]

To resolve the argument of whether the track was live or not I re-watched the video tape last night, and it was most definitely live when the marshal crossed the track.
David Coulthard's Red Bull was crossing the finish line as the marshal started his run, and as he got 2/3 across a Super Aguri and another car (might have been an MF1) came around the last bend on to the straight. The 2nd marshal turned back upon seeing them come on to the straight.
Neither the Super Aguri nor the other car turned into the pits, and there was definitely not any sort of course car ahead of them.

[rescue dude]

Thats what i saw as well.

[Doc Hollywood]

Dear me, sounds like the Aus GP marshals are getting another grilling. Last year I was on the recieving end for crossing the gravel trap to attend MS in a head on position. I was also grilled for crossing the track at a ford festival to put out an engine fire on the approach to paddock hill.

What everyone seems to forget is that its very fine and good to sit back in your armchair and pass comments like its some surreal version of pop-idol and you want to be simon cowell. The fact is I would have no doubt the marshal was fully aware of how much time he had, he would NOT have gone without permission and did anyone think that if the fire was to catch on to one of the teams pit-wall gantry set-ups that they would have had a slightly larger problem than an engine fire?

It really gets on my nerves that people have this thing in mind that if a marshal crosses some invisible line in the middle of the track that he/she is suddenly dangerous and their ability should be called into question. If the marshal had no reason to cross then my outlook would be different, from what I can see he didnt get hit, he didnt nearly get hit and no-one is any worse off for his actions.

[PipSqueak111]

Originally Posted by Doc H

Dear me, sounds like the Aus GP marshals are getting another grilling. Last year I was on the recieving end for crossing the gravel trap to attend MS in a head on position. I was also grilled for crossing the track at a ford festival to put out an engine fire on the approach to paddock hill.

Coincidence that you should join this topic, Doc H. It was you that crossed the track and attended that Caterham Driver at the FFF, when I crossed behind you with a bottle.

[Woolley]

I don't think it was co-incidence. I think he's making the very good point that it's easy to marshal from the armchair, much harder if you're there making what could be a life or death decision. There are many golden rules, but none of them are absolute. None of us know the full process that went on here, and since the end result was satisfactory, then we should just add it to the memory bank and treat each incident as a new experience, backed up with what we've learned to date.

[PipSqueak111]

Originally Posted by Woolley

I don't think it was co-incidence. I think he's making the very good point that it's easy to marshal from the armchair, much harder if you're there making what could be a life or death decision. There are many golden rules, but none of them are absolute. None of us know the full process that went on here, and since the end result was satisfactory, then we should just add it to the memory bank and treat each incident as a new experience, backed up with what we've learned to date.

I wasn't having a pop at Doc H, Woolley. I agree with the sentiment, as I thought my first post said. I just thought it was funny that I hadn't seen much from Doc H in here recently and he popped up in a thread just after I'd mentioned an incident when I'd marshalled with him.

[BFC]

speaking of crossing tracks i remember many,many years ago at Sandown when at the start of a race someone jumped the fence to push a stalled car and was nearly cleaned up by the Pulsar chase car ......i wont mention any names but the initials are PVDA......we havent forgiven Rolly since for missing him

[275 GTB-4]

Originally Posted by Woolley

Hear, hear. Who amongst us has never made a mistake? And we don't expect to be crucified on here when we do. According to PVDA, the marshal may have chatted to the officials, and we're always learning. The source of the problem appears to be that the marshals who would have attended were prevented from doing so by officialdom, leaving others to try to sort out the resulting problems on the hoof.

It's very easy to make the right decision from 10,000 miles away, no pressure and no idea of the problems faced. I just congratulate the guy on taking the utmost care in trying to do the right thing, even if he was ultimately unsuccessful in that attempt. I too have seen the Tom Pryce incident, and the circumstances here were totally different. I personally would not have crossed the track because it has been drummed into me not to, but I also remember the Caterham shunt at Brands when the guys had to cross 2/3rds of the track to get there and did a superb job. Nobody leapt on them and said it was wrong.

Of course, it's this kind of thing that adds to the reasons I won't do a GP. Bernie's circus is wonderful at making very good marshals look like idiots. How often do your hear the marshals criticized over blue flags? And who's responsibility os that? Not the marshals.

Nice words Woolen one.....as one who has had a verbal arse kickicking for endangering Marshals to check on crashed Drivers....totally agree....we are on the spot and sometimes it is a judgement call