ALMS/Grand Am Fusion 2014

[Fogelhund]

It looks like they are discussing no changes to "Prototype" categories through until at least 2016... so DP's and LMP2's until then.... They need to take care of their customers is the claim. Fans are customers too, this isn't very interesting IMHO.

[Salamus]

Originally Posted by MitchZ06

Remember we were discussing the speed difference between the GTE and DP classes? GA has just qualified at Laguna Seca with the pole car doing a 1:21.042, the pole position GTE at the ALMS race did a 1:22.229. Not as much of a difference when that Aston would have qualified 6th on the DP grid ahead of 4 DPs.

The DPs will definitely need to be sped up to expand the gap otherwise they'd be swamped by GTE cars.

The gap between DP and GTE is so close while the gap between GTE and GT is a lot bigger. I don't want them to tamper with GTE but I wouldn't be surprised if they slow down GTE cars.

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

It looks like they are discussing no changes to "Prototype" categories through until at least 2016... so DP's and LMP2's until then.... They need to take care of their customers is the claim. Fans are customers too, this isn't very interesting IMHO.

Teams have invested in these cars and expect some longevity out of them. It wouldn't be fair to make everyone buy new. I can deal with one or two years of transition as long as the final product provides interesting/fast cars and good/tough/strategic racing.

[Maelochs]

The worry is that after two years of uninteresting cars there might no tbe enough people still interested to make buying all-new machinery financially feasible.

Also--if GTE is slowed (and I don't see how it cannot be)--then will the cars still be eligible for Le Mans? When ZP2s are slowed to DP speeds, will those cars be eligible? Will teams wanting to cross over essentially be driving unfamiliar machinery, once the cars are re-fitted to ACO standards?

What about that supposedly important link to the ACO, then?

I understand that everyone bought new DPs for 2012, and most P2 teams bought cars this season or last. I also understand that the new series pretty much has to grab people's attention right out of the box, and if the first pronouncement is that nothing will change for a couple years, then the series better hope the fans love the 2014 formula.

[MitchZ06]

They can't slow GTE otherwise they'll ruin the ACO link (as that's where most teams from the ALMS that have gone to Le Mans are from) so no doubt the DP's will be sped up. Less weight and more power and boom, faster.

[JHamilton]

Originally Posted by MitchZ06

They can't slow GTE otherwise they'll ruin the ACO link (as that's where most teams from the ALMS that have gone to Le Mans are from) so no doubt the DP's will be sped up. Less weight and more power and boom, faster.

In a strait line yes. New tires will help more than anything.

[picchiofan]

Originally Posted by MitchZ06

They can't slow GTE otherwise they'll ruin the ACO link (as that's where most teams from the ALMS that have gone to Le Mans are from) so no doubt the DP's will be sped up. Less weight and more power and boom, faster.

More power and real tires for the DPs, and intake restrictors on the GTE. Voila.

ALMS already does this and maintains "the ACO link".

[lms]

Originally Posted by MitchZ06

They can't slow GTE otherwise they'll ruin the ACO link (as that's where most teams from the ALMS that have gone to Le Mans are from) so no doubt the DP's will be sped up. Less weight and more power and boom, faster.

why? Maybe they just put on a restrictor and thats it? And they simply wouldnt have to use the restrictor at Le Mans.

[DeathOrGlory]

A grace period won't hurt I think. Some continuity would help teams adjust, its a whole new playground we're talking about here. Can't let the teams just go to the deep end.

Flip-flopping of rules ain't a good sign of a series.

[Salamus]

Originally Posted by DeathOrGlory

Flip-flopping of rules ain't a good sign of a series.

And stability is exactly what the WEC/Le Mans/ALMS-GrandAm need. Hopefully the new 2014/5 rules will be in place for at least 5 years.

[fieldodreams79]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

It looks like they are discussing no changes to "Prototype" categories through until at least 2016... so DP's and LMP2's until then.... They need to take care of their customers is the claim. Fans are customers too, this isn't very interesting IMHO.

So new cars in 5 plus years? I understand transition times, but that's very discouraging. Seems far too long.

[ApexClips]

It seems like they are designing the rules logically to safeguard the investments for all of the teams currently involved, while still keeping the racing interesting and the fans happy.

I personally would love to see the DP's done away with, and P2 become the sole prototype class. However, if the series is to succeed, I think having a solid car count and happy team owners is more important than some abstract notion of the LMP's superiority (in the short term).

I'd imagine that if this merger is successful enough, and the sponsors are happy with the increased audience for the new series, many DP teams will likely be open to switching to P2 in a few years. If a couple of years of DP-P2 competition is required to make this happen, then bring it on. Should still be considerably more interesting to watch than a DP-only top class, which might be the only viable alternative.

-long time sports car racing fan from Ontario

[Speed-King]

some abstract notion of the LMP's superiority

Especially when you could also build a case for the DP's superiority.

Not in on track performance, but in teams represented, driver quality, manufacturer involvement (Ford bringing specific bodywork in the off season) and stuff like that.

While we don't know how much GM and Ford have/will invest/ed on the Dp programs it certainly wouldn't be a smart idea to let that go to waste. They'll need the manufacturers on board for the next gen prototypes, whenever that might be.

[Nick6]

Originally Posted by picchiofan

More power and real tires for the DPs, and intake restrictors on the GTE. Voila.

ALMS already does this and maintains "the ACO link".

GTE's already have intake restrictors, and small ones at that.

With only a hand full of current DP's out there why waste too much time trying to accommodate them. Grand father the DP class for 1 year, then let them run in P2(or the equivalent) if anyone is interested in running them beyond that.

[picchiofan]

Originally Posted by Nick6

GTE's already have intake restrictors, and small ones at that.

With only a hand full of current DP's out there why waste too much time trying to accommodate them. Grand father the DP class for 1 year, then let them run in P2(or the equivalent) if anyone is interested in running them beyond that.

Average DP fields this year have been 11-15 cars, Sahlens just announced a two car DP effort for 2013.

P2 has three cars, two of which are owned by a guy that's going to jail in a year. Methinks you keep those teams happy.

[gregtummer]

One thing that is being missed is that Grand Am pays most of its DP field to race. Are they still going to keep doing this? If not, then how many DPs will they have?

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by gregtummer

One thing that is being missed is that Grand Am pays most of its DP field to race. Are they still going to keep doing this? If not, then how many DPs will they have?

I think *pays* is not quite the right word... as I understand it it's really a combination of setting people up with sponsorship opportunities and sugar daddies, with direct hand outs only coming into play if teams can't make ends otherwise and rarely if ever for the whole budget.

Even Spirit of Daytona - a usual example for a France run team - has GoPro and GOil sponsorship, so it's not like Jim France is picking up the whole tab for 6 or 7 DPs.

[picchiofan]

Originally Posted by gregtummer

One thing that is being missed is that Grand Am pays most of its DP field to race. Are they still going to keep doing this? If not, then how many DPs will they have?

They "pay" in the same way the Indycar, F1 and Sprint Cup pays. There's contingency deals, TV money and they work with sponsors for the teams.

How is that a bad thing?

[Purist]

Alright, I guess I need to hit the track stuff first.

Here's my rundown of courses that should be on the schedule, plus maybe a couple that have detractors, but cover critical markets that are otherwise unserved.

1. Daytona
2. Sebring
3. Long Beach
4. Laguna Seca
5. Lime Rock
6. Belle Isle (long course layout)
7. Watkins Glen
8. Mosport Park
9. Mont Tremblant
10. Mid Ohio
11. Road America
12. Sears Point
13. VIR
14. Barber
15. Road Atlanta

Miller has already been picked up and dropped by both GA and ALMS. For such a long track, especially the Full Circuit, it's too long time-wise with all those medium-speed corners, only a couple good "straights", and just a few good overtaking spots.The place seems empty, spread out, and is relatively flat. There are very few landmarks, and even fewer cues to use to get a sense of speed or perspective when the cars are going around.

New Jersey has some of those same problems, plus they neutered the most obvious elevation change on the track with that chicane (yes, I know about the cars picking up front wheels over that crest in the 2008 GA race). Again, everything is pushed back too far to have much of a sense of speed or perspective.

Austin needs to be completed, and show that it has a sustainable future. As with the two aforementioned though, everything is so pushed back that I expect it will be difficult to discern the speed of the cars in many areas around the lap.

Also, in general terms, regardless of the track, when you push everything back like that, you fundamentally limit how much of an atmosphere the place can have. Silverstone is saved by the bridges and the sheer number of large grandstands around the place, so it doesn't just look like you're racing around El Toro with grass. The track at Istanbul is itself nice, but with ground surroundings like the Caesar's Palace parking lot, and what grandstands there are being so far back, a flat road course like Portland has more atmosphere.

And the paved run-offs HAVE ruined some things about some classic road courses. Eau Rouge, Pouhon, and Blanchimont do NOT have the pucker factor at all like they used to. You don't have to respect those corners anymore, so drivers WILL STOP respecting them in time. It also means that you stop rewarding actual driving skill and precision when you can make a mockery of those sections and get away with.

And no, I DON'T trust the stewards to consistently and fairly adjudicate these things (like whether or not a driver has properly respected track boundaries). If you don't want them to use it, DON'T pave it at all in the first place, period! Let the laws of physics, an infinitely better arbiter, take care of discouraging the bad behavior on-track.

And it's NOT the job of the run-offs to make every off a non-event. If you go off at any of those three corners at Spa, it should be the end of your race. Don't like that? Don't make the mistake that will put you there in the first place! Cars get damaged; it's just a part of racing. As long as the drivers can walk away, or VERY occasionally have to get some assistance, then the cars and the tracks have done their job. And to put a finer point on it, I'm darn well convinced that a current LMP1 on the 1985 iteration of Spa would have seen Stafan Bellof walk away from that crash at Eau Rouge.

And to touch on the physics here again, I don't think it makes, or should make, a bloody difference the type of track being raced on. The issue is the strength of the car, the impact force, angle of impact, and the type of barrier being impacted. If the car can take it, and adequately protect the driver, it's "safe". If the impact is simply too much, then it's "not safe". It doesn't make a damn bit of difference to me whether we're talking about Miller, Monaco, Monza, or Melbourne! The laws of physics at play here don't magically change between the Mediterranean coast and the high desert of Utah. BTW, the F1 lap record at Melbourne is 142-mph and change, average speed! Think about that.

[gregtummer]

I agree with some of your safety points Purist.

It seems ridiculous to me that the fastest, most ridiculous cars in the world, with the strictest course safety standards (F1) will race at new street events like Valencia and Singapore, where the the walls are right on top of the drivers at most of the circuit, but yet any new natural terrain road courses being built need 1000ft runoff at each turn.

[Purist]

Picchio, the regular, base DP field has been 9 cars this season. It's been as low as 7 this year. LMP1 and lMP2 have totaled 6-7 this year, so NOT that far off. Also, there's the LMPCs, which are certainly in play if we're just going to performance balance everyone, in which case that's another 7 or so LMPs in the mix.

The funding thing IS bad when it's a demonstration that the teams simply can't support themselves on their own. How should the teams that DID find their own sponsorship and backing to support themselves fully feel when they see this kind of treatment. And I don't think any mere mortal man is entirely above reproach, so there also has to be a question of fairness and equity between the teams that are supporting themselves, and those getting that added assistance.

[gregtummer]

Purist, this is the guy who thinks that John Dagys is a fanboy who reads Internet rumors and writes PR for Level 5.

[skycafe]

Originally Posted by Purist

the regular, base DP field has been 9 cars this season. It's been as low as 7 this year.
.

but I thought Riley had built something on the order of 30 or so cars on their own?

[Purist]

Throughout their DP run, which they started competing in 2004, Riley probably has built that many, or possibly more. However, there were only 14 DPs total at this year's Daytona 24. That is only about half of the largest DP grid they've had there, and is smaller than the regular-season DP grids they had during some years.

I might add that previous generation DPs have been allowed to run this year, so nobody was absolutely required to just up and replace all their equipment for this season.

[Brake dust]

I'll take the extra runoff over full course cautions which seems to happen every 15 minutes at USA races Laguna Seca always has what seems to be a full 20 percent of the races under yellow. Went to Imola last year for the Intercontinental Series and there were not fill course cautions for the entire race!

[pach233]

Just wanted you all to know, COO of ALMS Scot Elkins has been taking fan input on twitter for the last couple of hours. Seems most of the comments are pretty positive and he's been pretty receptive to what fans have said. He also has invited fans to send him an email with their ideas and input. Fingers crossed that they get this right.