[WEC] Porsche Prototype Discussion

[Victor_RO]

Originally Posted by Piritos

Who do you think has the best chance to take Hülkenberg's place in the third car? How sure is it that Tandy and Bamber will again drive the 3rd car?

Answer 1: whoever Porsche sees fit depending on testing performance. On the face of it, the guys with the best shot from outside the "family" are Mitch Evans and Oliver Turvey, otherwise someone from the GT side of things.

Answer 2: 99.99% sure that Tandy and Bamber will be back in that car for Spa/Le Mans. Why deny them a chance to defend their win?

[joeb]

Originally Posted by Victor_RO

Answer 2: 99.99% sure that Tandy and Bamber will be back in that car for Spa/Le Mans. Why deny them a chance to defend their win?

Maybe they want to watch the F1 race?

[Artur]

Originally Posted by TzeiTzei

The fuel energy for a lap at Le Mans this year for Audi with a 4MJ diesel was 134,8 MJ. 10MJ reduction from that is 7,4%.

thanks!

That's the info I was looking for.
73.5MJ/135MJ= 0.54
does anyone knows if this on par with current ICEs efficiency levels?

Originally Posted by TzeiTzei

I don't think that power can be calculated from just the amount of energy for a lap. You would have to know how much energy goes to waste (wind, engine's efficiency etc). I think the fuel flow limit is there to restrict the top power of the engines, and for Audi it was 79,0 kg/h. If they drop the fuel flow by the same 7%, then it is probably logical that max engine power drops by 7%.

Oh yeah, there is no way for regulators(ACO/FIA) to know the energy that is getting out of the engines into the powertrain(power values, like the 590HP I used, are taken from dynamometers) and all ACO/FIA can know of is the total fuel energy available, not the energy(power over time) that is the outcome of the ICE

Originally Posted by TzeiTzei

But then again they will probably improve the engine so in the end the change won't be very big.

But if they regain those 7% with natural development, it would be back to where it was instead of improving the pace as happened this year

7% is still too big(~40HP), imho, and that will likely take 1s away from the cars. Really hope this only applies to Le Mans(the only Grade 2 on the calendar). There is no safety need/excuse to slow down on regular Grade 1 tracks. And it's not like they would need to redesign the cars for a different fuel allocation between tracks or anything. So, totally unecessary reduction on other tracks.

[TzeiTzei]

Originally Posted by Artur

Oh yeah, there is no way for regulators(ACO/FIA) to know the energy that is getting out of the engines into the powertrain(power values, like the 590HP I used, are taken from dynamometers) and all ACO/FIA can know of is the total fuel energy available, not the energy(power over time) that is the outcome of the ICE

I think they know quite well how efficient each ICE is. Wasn't that the basis for calculating the values in the EoT table?

But if they regain those 7% with natural development, it would be back to where it was instead of improving the pace as happened this year

7% is still too big(~40HP), imho, and that will likely take 1s away from the cars. Really hope this only applies to Le Mans(the only Grade 2 on the calendar). There is no safety need/excuse to slow down on regular Grade 1 tracks. And it's not like they would need to redesign the cars for a different fuel allocation between tracks or anything. So, totally unecessary reduction on other tracks.

I don't see that as a problem. The cars are fast now, and they will be equally fast next year. ICE horsepower reduction might affect top speed a bit, but tyre development, aero development and bigger hybrid systems for Audi and Toyota could make them faster than what they are now.

Tbh I only see this 10MJ reduction as a first step. The rumoured 30MJ reduction would have a significant effect, and might bring the privateers back in to contention. But that would no doubt upset some people

[Ephaeton]

Originally Posted by Artur

But if they regain those 7% with natural development, it would be back to where it was instead of improving the pace as happened this year

Imagine P1s speed were fixed like roundabout currently for the next decade with exponentially decreasing fossil fuel use. That wouldn't push me away. Quite the contrary, actually.

I know I want my car go the same speed in ten years with using 0.93^10 (i.e., t_10 < 0.5*t_0 in other words "less than 50%") of fuel. Less than that, actually, but I'll take 50% each decade for a starter.

[J Jay]

Originally Posted by TzeiTzei

I don't see that as a problem. The cars are fast now, and they will be equally fast next year. ICE horsepower reduction might affect top speed a bit, but tyre development, aero development and bigger hybrid systems for Audi and Toyota could make them faster than what they are now.

Quite. It is relatively easy to quantify (and therefore regulate) powertrain values, whereas trying to account for the effects of chassis/suspension/aero/tyres is a much more difficult job. After factoring in the developments in these areas, I wouldn't be surprised to see next year's cars doing this year's lap times straight out of the box.

Originally Posted by Piritos

Who do you think has the best chance to take Hülkenberg's place in the third car? How sure is it that Tandy and Bamber will again drive the 3rd car?

Michael Christensen seems to be very highly thought by Porsche management, much like Earl Bamber was this year (and we know how that ended up).

CTD likes this.

Bamber & Tandy are guaranteed to be in the 3rd car again. The only thing that would keep them out is a full season 919 drive but I don't expect any movement from the #17 & #18 driver lineups.

[CTD]

Originally Posted by J Jay

Michael Christensen seems to be very highly thought by Porsche management, much like Earl Bamber was this year (and we know how that ended up).

CTD likes this.

Bamber & Tandy are guaranteed to be in the 3rd car again. The only thing that would keep them out is a full season 919 drive but I don't expect any movement from the #17 & #18 driver lineups.

I certainly do!
Kevin Magnussen is an outsider to that seat too, but personally I think it should go to Michael Christensen. (also when I take out my nationality)

[Artur]

Originally Posted by Ephaeton

Imagine P1s speed were fixed like roundabout currently for the next decade with exponentially decreasing fossil fuel use. That wouldn't push me away. Quite the contrary, actually.

I know I want my car go the same speed in ten years with using 0.93^10 (i.e., t_10 < 0.5*t_0 in other words "less than 50%") of fuel. Less than that, actually, but I'll take 50% each decade for a starter.

Will ICE efficiency improve by this rate, though?

From what I heard(don't know how accurate that is), ICEs will never be even close to 100% efficiency

I think they just should have waited until 2017 to slow them down. Let one more year of free development to see the gains and then act based on two years of development rates.

[Spyderman]

I completely agree with you Artur. The problem is that this would make sense if there was an objective reason to slow the cars down.
We don’t see cars taking off (like in 1999) or drivers (besides some AM drivers) complaining that they feel unsafe. There really is no objective reason to slow the cars down at this time, other than political and some misplaced idea that something must be done. This untimely decision is “camouflaged” under various guises. Sometimes it is justified under the guise of “budget concerns”, other times its safety, and sometimes it is “going green”. Occasionally it is a combination of the three.
I used to be more sensitive to the “budget concerns” argument than I am now-a-days. I have come to realize that manufacturers spend what they think they can afford or they can politically justify. When they reach their limit, they pull out, regardless of the rules. Would Peugeot have continued if the cost of racing a LMP1 had been half of what it was? The answer is NO! They withdrew for political reasons. They could not justify spending money (whatever the amount) when the rest of the company was financially unstable. If truth be told, the saving from their withdrawal would have been almost negligible, but it was politically necessary. Porsche did the same under Weideking. (indecently – he earned $115M in 2007 (mostly from profit sharing), yet we did not see anyone cry-out that he must earn less because the company could not afford it)
To me it is almost nonsensical to “sell” a rule set that promotes future technology (and they did this very successfully) and then spend most of your time trying to undo or hinder the gains obtained from these technologies.
No doubt that there is a need for a balance to be achieved between safety, budget and technology. To me, that balance has not been achieved, and is heavily skewed in favor of safety and budget (if in name only).
In the end, I suppose I should be thankful that Porsche will continue for one more season, thanks to the savings from one less set of tires and 10mj less fuel used per lap. At least the drivers are safer!

[TzeiTzei]

Originally Posted by Artur

Will ICE efficiency improve by this rate, though?

From what I heard(don't know how accurate that is), ICEs will never be even close to 100% efficiency

I think they just should have waited until 2017 to slow them down. Let one more year of free development to see the gains and then act based on two years of development rates.

When ICE reaches 100% efficiency it won't make any sound or heat. So no, that will never happen. I don't know but maybe they are currently around 40%, a bit more for diesel, a bit less for petrol.

[Spyderman]

Magnussen has driven the 919. Here are his impressions:


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CTdLf0QUwAEeky5.jpg

[Richard C]

Interesting comment about detecting wheel lock in the front. I don't know why, but I have never thought about that.

Richard

PS: I am glad he got a good drive.

[joeb]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

Interesting comment about detecting wheel lock in the front. I don't know why, but I have never thought about that.

Richard

Given his family upbringing, i had just assumed he had some experience in cars with a roof. But it sounds like this may have been pretty unique for him.

[Spyderman]

[J Jay]

Originally Posted by joeb

Given his family upbringing, i had just assumed he had some experience in cars with a roof. But it sounds like this may have been pretty unique for him.

Some of the feel will have been taken away by the brake by wire system as well, although he should be used to this from his time in F1. It's interesting to hear that he relies on visual cues to such an extent to tell when the fronts are locking up.

[Spyderman]

More images from the test. Oliver Turvey and Mitch Evans also tested:

[Spyderman]

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

Interesting comment about detecting wheel lock in the front. I don't know why, but I have never thought about that.

Richard

PS: I am glad he got a good drive.

It is interesting. Does that mean in modern racers the feel is gone from the pedal because of the fly-by-wire? Not sure i would like that.

Even with the super assisted braking in a moden road car (direct) systems feel is there. Although some cars are worse than others. My race car has poor feel, or rather feel that is not as obvious as others so it takes a couple of laps to dial back in - it isn't nice until you get used to it.

[TF110]

I think the feel is most different because the front axel is harvesting energy in these lmp1's but in f1 only the rear axel has a kers system. Pedal travel is probably a big difference there since the kers is like a braking assist.

[rich07]

Interesting how Mags Jnr wore a plain Alpinestars suit compared to Turvey and Evans who wore the Porsche gear. A small detail perhaps...I bet Kevin was just happy to drive a car knowing that it wasn't going to blow up before he left pit lane.

[Richard C]

I assume the method for detecting rear wheel lock in F1 is to look in the mirrors, or... When you notice the rear of the car passing the front!

Richard

[CTD]

Originally Posted by rich07

Interesting how Mags Jnr wore a plain Alpinestars suit compared to Turvey and Evans who wore the Porsche gear. A small detail perhaps...I bet Kevin was just happy to drive a car knowing that it wasn't going to blow up before he left pit lane.

Just a matter of time to prepare and previous relationship with Porsche.

[Spyderman]

Porsche took 4 awards at the Professional Motorsport Awards this year:
1- Team of the year.
2- Powertrain system
3- Motorsport Engineer (Alex Hitzinger - Very well deserved IMO)
4- Race car of the Year!

CONGRATULATIONS PORSCHE!!

[CTD]

Danish media is reporting Magnussen to be the fastest of the three out of the test sessions.
No times or anything to support it.

[Spyderman]

Originally Posted by CTD

Danish media is reporting Magnussen to be the fastest of the three out of the test sessions.
No times or anything to support it.

I'm not really surprised. What would be really indicative, is to know how his times were in relation to the benchmark time set by Timo in the sessions. If we knew that, then we could make an educated guess on whether we will see Magnussen dressed in white at Le Mans.