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Old 11 Aug 2022, 17:17 (Ref:4122560)   #201
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I saw the peter windsor video, and thought the concept of a 'handshake' as a multi-million pound agreement a bit naive.

But there are some common good business principals that apply to all business including F1.

Oscar knew what Alpine had invested in him in terms of time/money/resource, so contract or not, good business practice would be to talk to the team to say 'I'm not happy with the Williams deal, Mclaren look like a better offer, I'd like to go for it'

Alpine knew they had a junior eager driver, that from his point of view they thought he was going to Williams, the Alonso situation changed, which changed the position of Oscar for Alpine, before issuing a press release, perhaps talk to your team member, find out his thoughts, get a common view point and message before issuing a press release blindly - it's just immature from Alpine

Alonso was in the middle of negotiations, if one of you wants to end negotiations you say 'it's over' - Alpine clearly thought they where still haggling

easy to say all this with zero fact and just gossip but it feels there is a huge lack of professionalism on all sides going on with what should be a a well practiced operation
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Old 11 Aug 2022, 17:55 (Ref:4122562)   #202
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I saw the peter windsor video, and thought the concept of a 'handshake' as a multi-million pound agreement a bit naive.

But there are some common good business principals that apply to all business including F1.

Oscar knew what Alpine had invested in him in terms of time/money/resource, so contract or not, good business practice would be to talk to the team to say 'I'm not happy with the Williams deal, Mclaren look like a better offer, I'd like to go for it'

Alpine knew they had a junior eager driver, that from his point of view they thought he was going to Williams, the Alonso situation changed, which changed the position of Oscar for Alpine, before issuing a press release, perhaps talk to your team member, find out his thoughts, get a common view point and message before issuing a press release blindly - it's just immature from Alpine

Alonso was in the middle of negotiations, if one of you wants to end negotiations you say 'it's over' - Alpine clearly thought they where still haggling

easy to say all this with zero fact and just gossip but it feels there is a huge lack of professionalism on all sides going on with what should be a a well practiced operation

As you say, all the above is easy to say without knowing what the terms of the contract actually were.

I would imagine that the contract with Piastri was more favourable in it's terms to Alpine - as you say, they had invested heavily in the young man - so it is possible that as the team had not exercised their option at the 11th hour, Piastri must have felt that he wasn't valued and he may have lost the opportunity to go to McLaren if he had spoken to the team prior to the expiry of Alpine's option clause.

In my opinion, for what little it's worth, Alpine cocked up big time and it would seem as though the Recognition Panel also thought so to as they ruled in favour of the driver.
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Old 11 Aug 2022, 21:46 (Ref:4122579)   #203
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I want to reiterate this point, as some posters seem to think that it was a deliberate act by OP to spurn a 2023 Alpine seat. It would appear that when the 2023 seat with Alpine became available, OP was already committed to McLaren. He may even have wanted, or at least been prepared, to take the Alpine seat, but couldn't because of that contract/commitment.
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Old 11 Aug 2022, 22:35 (Ref:4122584)   #204
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It seems to me that OP and MW feel Oscar is too good a prospect to heaven forbid have to drive a Williams for a year while he gets some F1 race experience. Good enough for George Russell to drive for 3 years. It seems because the thought of a clearly better McLaren drive was more palatable to Oscar and Mark..... Zak Brown clearly didnt want to invest time and money in Oscar to then have to give him back to Alpine. Zak wants Oscar without ties.

I found it interesting to note that Mark Webbers Management company website makes some astonishing claims given what has happened, and the lack of respect loyalty honesty and integrity is is polar opposite to what he promotes his company to represent.

From Marks business website.
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.....the company website notes that "our approach to business is based on simple core values; integrity, honesty, loyalty, respect, responsibility and commitment".
Strange way of showing it Mark.

Of course if McLaren manage to pay off Ricciardo which they will, Oscar then has to get thrown in at the deep end of a team and car centred around Lando who is obviously pretty handy.

@ Green Machine I understand that Oscar didnt have an Alpine race seat in place at the time he signed for McLaren but he did had an almost certain drive at Williams. Its the lack of loyalty I dont lack, and total ignoring of the team that put him where he is.

I hope he hasnt tainted his reputation for down the track in his career.
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Old 12 Aug 2022, 03:10 (Ref:4122591)   #205
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So much written with so little knowledge.
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Old 12 Aug 2022, 04:35 (Ref:4122592)   #206
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So much written with so little knowledge.
It is a forum and to be fair, most of us have very little knowledge and only for opinions right ?
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Old 12 Aug 2022, 04:49 (Ref:4122594)   #207
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It is a forum and to be fair, most of us have very little knowledge and only for opinions right ?
This!
I am basing MY opinion of what I know atm coupled to my own (perhaps old fashioned non Piranha Club) personal morals. No one has to agree with me and I hope that as more info comes to light that my opinion will become more accepting.
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Old 12 Aug 2022, 06:49 (Ref:4122596)   #208
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Exactly. Public discussion forums like this are the opportunity for us all to state our personal viewpoints which generally come biased by our own opinions backed up with whatever knowledge we may have (or even think we have). By reading these diverse opinions others are able to form their own ideas about what is happening (unless of course they don't have an open mind). We can't always expect to have access to *all* of the facts (especially in a complicated case like this one), but that's what can make the speculation, and the subsequent discussion more interesting (if you have an open mind)...
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Old 12 Aug 2022, 08:04 (Ref:4122599)   #209
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Quite right, you can only speculate on what you know or guess - but there are very few known facts around this case.

Personally I think Green Machine has it spot on. Once he'd signed to McLaren he was contractually unable to accept any Alpine offer. And Alpine were well aware long ago that OP preferred McLaren to Williams.

The only thing that seems silly from OP was the unnecessarily confrontational tweet.
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Old 12 Aug 2022, 08:50 (Ref:4122606)   #210
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I think we got a clear idea on what happened, it's just we're waiting to hear it from the horse's mouth

He's gonna end up at McLaren in some form next year and will turn down any offer from Alpine. Alpine didn't do enough for him and McLaren seems a logical choice, certainly more so than Williams

And yes, maybe he shouldn't have put out that tweet
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Old 12 Aug 2022, 10:08 (Ref:4122616)   #211
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I wonder how much actually has to do with Alpine and it's current leadership.
Laurent Rossi has had much public negative feedback from public figures like Prost (keep in mind that he's also a difficult character) and a few others.

There has also been persistent rumblings that Alpine are not serious contenders in terms of championships and are not committing the level of investment (both cash, resources, people) to be true front runners, and just want to be in F1 for being part of the marketing and Rossi is just running the team like his own ego empire.

From a young drivers point of view that may not be an inspiring or desirable environment to be in, so maybe the opportunity to just be out of there is actually appealing, so rather than the Wiliams drive being unappealing, being out of contract with Alpine was actually the goal
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Old 12 Aug 2022, 16:15 (Ref:4122631)   #212
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I don't think Mark Webber comes out of this well. He has a "nice guy" image which has been spoiled.
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Old 12 Aug 2022, 18:43 (Ref:4122634)   #213
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I don't think Mark Webber comes out of this well. He has a "nice guy" image which has been spoiled.
I think that depends upon how things work out for Piastri. And we may not know the answer for that until after he is in a seat and how he is performing vs. Alpine. In the end he is supposed to be getting the best outcome for his client and not being "nice" with Alpine.

As mentioned above. All we can do is speculate. There is no doubt a lot of untold stories/info that we all just don't have.

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Old 12 Aug 2022, 21:41 (Ref:4122641)   #214
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I don't think Mark Webber comes out of this well. He has a "nice guy" image which has been spoiled.
Why?He has done an outstanding job for Piastri with 4/5 teams wanting to give him a drive.That was his role in this.
He was not supposed to sacrifice Oscar to not hurt Ricciardo’s feelings further after 2 dismal seasons when McLaren were obviously suffering buyers remorse.
The people who don’t come out of this well are Alpine who were prepared to sacrifice a 21 year old Piastri so that a 41 year old Alonso could have a graceful ride off into the sunset.Alpine got what they deserved out of this.
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Old 13 Aug 2022, 00:21 (Ref:4122643)   #215
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I think the people saying that Oscar, Weber etc "done dan wrong" are overlooking one thing. McLaren had already decided they wanted him out of their car. So much so that they were willing to pay many million golden parachute and many million more to a replacement rather than stick with him for just one more year.

They were looking for a replacement when team oscar made themselves known.
If Oscar hadnt taken the seat somebody else would have been signed. Two things are certain. Somebody was going to drive that car next year and it wasnt going to be Dan

The only reason we are all obsessing is the optics of one Aussie (a very popular one) getting sacked in favour of another (rookie) and the legal and PR stoush caused by Alpines clumsy handling of the affair.
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Old 13 Aug 2022, 10:38 (Ref:4122663)   #216
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I don't think it's Oscar or Mark's fault this whole situation with Dan. Daniel has been given the chance this year, but, despite a few good results, is being overshadowed by Lando, who's still young. So no surprise McLaren are looking for a way out with him. He might not even end the year with McLaren. Can easily see Herta being given a chance

Oscar obviously sees a big opportunity with McLaren. Can McLaren take the risk? I agree though, I don't see Danny at McLaren next year.

Really we haven't heard the end of the affair and it's a shame Alpine had to make a mess of how they handled the whole situation
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Old 13 Aug 2022, 12:50 (Ref:4122668)   #217
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im actually surprised Mclaren are buying a driver out...is this an unintended consequence of a budget cap and Mclaren finding themselves with more money then they are allowed to spend on their car?

dont get me wrong, im a fan of the cap (and of Mclaren) but i wish they could spend that money on the car because, imo, they need a lot more of something to consistently break into the top 3....and imo its not the points that Ric isnt getting keeping them from podiums.

on one hand i hope OP could be that more...but on the other hand then would that mean that Norris isnt?
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Old 13 Aug 2022, 15:19 (Ref:4122683)   #218
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As mentioned above. All we can do is speculate. There is no doubt a lot of untold stories/info that we all just don't have
Someone gets it, so much written with so much speculation and no hard facts for any of it.
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Old 13 Aug 2022, 21:38 (Ref:4122715)   #219
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im actually surprised Mclaren are buying a driver out...is this an unintended consequence of a budget cap and Mclaren finding themselves with more money then they are allowed to spend on their car?

dont get me wrong, im a fan of the cap (and of Mclaren) but i wish they could spend that money on the car because, imo, they need a lot more of something to consistently break into the top 3....and imo its not the points that Ric isnt getting keeping them from podiums.

on one hand i hope OP could be that more...but on the other hand then would that mean that Norris isnt?
No one would have thought McLaren was going to be faster than Red Bull,Ferrari or Mercedes on any consistent basis.Norris is ahead of every car from the 6 other teams so the car is no dog and is way ahead of the other Mercedes customer cars.
The relevant statistic is Norris on 76 points and Ricciardo on 19 points.After a year and a half with no sign of things improving McLaren had no desire to tank constructors points for another year and a half.
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Old 14 Aug 2022, 13:53 (Ref:4122780)   #220
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for me Mclaren have been massively disappointing this season and imo, the struggles of DanRic dont go nearly far enough to explain why. rather even if Ric had scored 0 points last year, Mclaren would have still been ahead of Alpine in the constructors (or close enough at least for my point to stand). this year Mclaren have also failed to do enough with the new rule set so they have an additional problem.

in other words, Ric's ongoing struggles are just now of much more importance because their current cars struggles (which has kind a been a not much talked about story this year?). both at the same time suck for sure but which one is the underlying problem, the driver or the car?

lot of talk about Alpine management and how they mishandled all of this...being honest tho, not sure i see Zak Brown in any better light here and perhaps more in need of finding a scapegoat?

its sports so its competitive i get that, but even in sports, buyouts are aggressive moves and rare even for the cutthroat world of F1? when was the last buy out in F1?

and Ric is apparently looking for 20+mil buyout???

so relevant numbers for me then are what would the real size of his buyout be and is that amount more or less then what next season's difference in prize money will be?

no disrespect to OP who may prove to be a game changer and i hope he is...time will tell if he was the right answer for this team or more to the point, if this team is even asking the right questions?
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Old 15 Aug 2022, 14:01 (Ref:4122862)   #221
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in other words, Ric's ongoing struggles are just now of much more importance because their current cars struggles (which has kind a been a not much talked about story this year?). both at the same time suck for sure but which one is the underlying problem, the driver or the car?
As to driver or car, I think it is probably both. What has really hurt Daniel is that Lando is making it work well enough to show a large delta between the two. Is that because Daniel is bad or that Lando is just that good. Again, I think it's a bit of both (Daniel being "bad" is a bit strong, but you get my point).

Lando has also spoken out about the challenges with the car. See article below in which he comments about how it doesn't suit his style. There are any number of articles or YouTube videos that show side by side comparisons between Daniel and Lando and it's clear that Lando is able to adapt more to what the car is expecting than Daniel. So it just looks like Daniel has a specific operating window around his capabilities. Give him a car that suits his style and he flies, but otherwise he can be outshined by his teammate.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/n...-car/10352607/

As to McLaren disappointing. I get it. But given how it wasn't too long ago that we were discussion the health and potential longevity of McLaren (mostly a financial question). I think they are doing well enough. Also, this is just a weird year in which while everyone had an opportunity to "get it right" and blitz the field, you also have a field of ten teams and they all have the same opportunity. Just look Mercedes. They are generally a well oiled machine (they do seem to be hemorrhaging staff to other teams), but even they got it wrong and have taken a full half season to get back to somewhat competitive. I think we should see closer parity next season from McLaren and others. This assume McLaren knows "why" their car is not performing well.

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Old 15 Aug 2022, 16:26 (Ref:4122872)   #222
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This assume McLaren knows "why" their car is not performing well.
thats the assumption i to am curious about. unfortunately the extreme nature of a driver buyout suggest to me that they dont know what the problem is.

all things being equal tho, one could surmise OP will be on a low rookie level retainer and a buyout for DR would be similar to wage he would have gotten in 2023...so from Mclaren's point of view they would have been out this money either way but this way they can develop a new driver, one who may bring in points similar if not more to the underperforming driver he is replacing, at the same time.

if i was a more optimistic person then this is a win win.

guess im just not that optimistic about this.
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Old 15 Aug 2022, 17:02 (Ref:4122875)   #223
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thats the assumption i to am curious about. unfortunately the extreme nature of a driver buyout suggest to me that they dont know what the problem is.
I was originally going to challenge that assertion, but after thinking about it, maybe I agree or at least see a logical argument for why.

If the 2023 car was more to the liking of both Lando and Daniel, then you might assume that Daniel might perform better (and they should keep him). But if they feel the car will be evolutionary and maybe still have the traits that challenge Daniel (and Lando), then they need someone else. This assume Oscar is able to adapt better than Daniel. I say this without having any clue as to what type of car Oscar might prefer or his ability to extract maximum performance from a less than optimal car. Could they have put Oscar in the McLaren simulator to see how he manages before offering him a contract???

Or... it all may just boil down to the fact that they are tired of Daniel and the quantity of points they feel they have lost with him over the recent past. And it is just time to try a new direction vs. hoping his performance will turn around.

Only McLaren leadership knows why.

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Old 15 Aug 2022, 17:23 (Ref:4122878)   #224
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Contract and financial issues aside, I though I'd read somewhere quite some time ago that the reason Danny Ric's poor performances compared to Lando Norris were associated with braking techniques; the Mclaren requiring some specific technique wheras Danny has been used to be able to jump on the anchors at the very last minute as he's demonstrated many times with demon overtaking manoeuvres.
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Old 15 Aug 2022, 18:57 (Ref:4122894)   #225
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Originally Posted by justracing View Post
Contract and financial issues aside, I though I'd read somewhere quite some time ago that the reason Danny Ric's poor performances compared to Lando Norris were associated with braking techniques; the Mclaren requiring some specific technique wheras Danny has been used to be able to jump on the anchors at the very last minute as he's demonstrated many times with demon overtaking manoeuvres.
There is this video which I think roughly says its about his performance in low speed corners. This might be what you are talking about...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVKeBAyIjyw

I know I watched a video on YT sometime in the past month that also did some turn by turn analysis of Lando vs Daniel along with timing of where Daniel was loosing time. I can't find that in my viewing history and wonder if its extensive use if FOM footage resulted in it being taken down? Regardless, while it might have been a cherrypicked example of a bad day for Daniel, it was pretty a pretty damming analysis. Broadly it looked like Daniel just struggled to get the car to rotate and even position the car.

Richard

Last edited by Richard C; 15 Aug 2022 at 19:09.
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