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Old 3 Aug 2021, 06:39 (Ref:4065025)   #1
Mike E
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Sports car/endurance sporting regulations

We all love a good moan about track limits, safety cars, full course yellows, wave arounds, drive times, driver gradings blah blah blah. So here is a thread just for that. Let's keep the whinging in race and series threads to a minimum by complaining about it here! Fair enough if it's relevant to a race outcome, but general discussions about different approaches just pollute the race threads.
If you don't want to know, you don't have to read it.
And if we wander too far off piste in another thread we can be gently directed here by our fellow posters.
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Old 3 Aug 2021, 13:43 (Ref:4065106)   #2
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...And if we wander too far off piste in another thread...
...then presumably we'll receive a series of drive throughs of ever increasing duration?
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Old 3 Aug 2021, 13:51 (Ref:4065109)   #3
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...then presumably we'll receive a series of drive throughs of ever increasing duration?
Eventually it becomes a grid place penalty for the next thread, which means you can't contribute until it has x-number of posts. Worst case scenario, you have to start from the pitlane only after 1 full page of the topic has been completed.
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Old 3 Aug 2021, 13:52 (Ref:4065110)   #4
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And if we wander too far off piste in another thread
Then they can be directed to SkiTalk, obviously!

Good idea Mike. Not sure how much take-up there will be but at least initially it will be good to see who gripes about what, so you are warned in advance in race threads.

Last edited by J Jay; 3 Aug 2021 at 13:52. Reason: Winky for continuity
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Old 3 Aug 2021, 14:01 (Ref:4065114)   #5
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Great idea to encourage discussion on all aspects of sportscar racing

We can implement penalties.
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Old 3 Aug 2021, 16:56 (Ref:4065169)   #6
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Good idea Mike. Not sure how much take-up there will be but at least initially it will be good to see who gripes about what, so you are warned in advance in race threads.
Yeah, not sure it will really work but I have a genuine question.

Does anyone at all think IMSA's safety car procedure is a good thing?
I have stopped watching IMSA races on several occasions because life is just too short to sit through laps of SC with pits closed, pits open for prototypes, pits open for GTs, wave around, cars that pitted catching the SC train, more wave arounds etc. Usually for a SC that was triggered by a single car spin that was recovered immediately after the SC was sent out, about 20 minutes before. I don't get it.

It's my candidate for worst FCY/SC procedure.
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Old 3 Aug 2021, 17:10 (Ref:4065171)   #7
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Does anyone at all think IMSA's safety car procedure is a good thing? I have stopped watching IMSA races on several occasions because life is just too short to sit through laps of SC with pits closed, pits open for prototypes, pits open for GTs, wave around, cars that pitted catching the SC train, more wave arounds etc. Usually for a SC that was triggered by a single car spin that was recovered immediately after the SC was sent out, about 20 minutes before. I don't get it.
Ah yes, IMSA pit procedures. To the best of my recollection:
- pits closed for a lap so nobody gains directly from the yellow call
- split GT/prototype pits so too many cars are not on pit lane at once
- constant wave-rounds so everybody knows their position for the restart

But I agree, this edges out SRO's procedure for its sheer, obnoxious length.

Aside from the usual justifications, one "benefit" of longer control periods is that it gives more down time for drivers on track - especially amateurs - and consequently they should be more prepared mentally and physically for the restart. I'm probably talking out my behind*, but it may be away for a series to be seen as "driver-friendly".

*Not much change there then...
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Old 3 Aug 2021, 18:20 (Ref:4065178)   #8
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Yeah, not sure it will really work but I have a genuine question.

Does anyone at all think IMSA's safety car procedure is a good thing?
I have stopped watching IMSA races on several occasions because life is just too short to sit through laps of SC with pits closed, pits open for prototypes, pits open for GTs, wave around, cars that pitted catching the SC train, more wave arounds etc. Usually for a SC that was triggered by a single car spin that was recovered immediately after the SC was sent out, about 20 minutes before. I don't get it.

It's my candidate for worst FCY/SC procedure.
I would rank IMSA as a close 2nd for the worst behind the SRO. But SRO's issue is a very very easy fix. Just end the "SC" part of the FCY/SC. Because they do all the clean up during the FCY part already.

IMSA is in different culture and location of course. But there are changes they can do within reason. The easiest is to implememnt "FCY" for debris and stalled car situations. Gaps are preserved and no wave arounds and no further delays. Keep currrent safety car procedures for crashes and bad weather.

The best handler of caution periods is the WEC for the non Le Mans races. Although shout out to the originators Creventic.
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Old 3 Aug 2021, 18:30 (Ref:4065181)   #9
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This thread topic is a great idea. Kudos to Mike E for thinking of it.
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Old 3 Aug 2021, 18:50 (Ref:4065184)   #10
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- pits closed for a lap so nobody gains directly from the yellow call

- split GT/prototype pits so too many cars are not on pit lane at once

- constant wave-rounds so everybody knows their position for the restart


I hadn't really thought about this until you outlined it, but really the whole point of the procedure is to allow a safe way to clean up whatever happened on track by bunching the cars together in one group. But then it made me wonder if really the idea is to just get the cars back together if racing has spread them out. In other words is it really just an effort to improve the show? Especially the separate pit openings for prototypes and GT cars that way you get the classes separate and you are more likely to be near your competitors at the restart.
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Old 3 Aug 2021, 19:12 (Ref:4065188)   #11
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I hadn't really thought about this until you outlined it, but really the whole point of the procedure is to allow a safe way to clean up whatever happened on track by bunching the cars together in one group. But then it made me wonder if really the idea is to just get the cars back together if racing has spread them out. In other words is it really just an effort to improve the show? Especially the separate pit openings for prototypes and GT cars that way you get the classes separate and you are more likely to be near your competitors at the restart.


... TenTenths would really benefit from more up-to-date media integration.

As WyldStallion said, it's an accepted/welcomed (delete as appropriate) part of racing culture in America to have the field reset during caution periods. Cautions breed cautions is an oft-repeated maxim, but if it provides the entertainment that the audience are used to, it isn't going to go away any time soon.
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Old 4 Aug 2021, 15:57 (Ref:4065328)   #12
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... TenTenths would really benefit from more up-to-date media integration.

As WyldStallion said, it's an accepted/welcomed (delete as appropriate) part of racing culture in America to have the field reset during caution periods. Cautions breed cautions is an oft-repeated maxim, but if it provides the entertainment that the audience are used to, it isn't going to go away any time soon.
These topics really come to head in the extended endurance races. For the GT WC Sprint races or even the IMSA 2 hour 40 minute races its not so bothersome. It is for the 24 hour races where it really stinks. Thankfully at Spa we had some green flag periods for multiple hours which really helped spread the field out. At the end of the day you know that the #32 Audi and #51 Ferrari were the class of the field.

At the Daytona 24 you can have 8 hours of non stop green, but then get 4 safety car periods within an hour and a half. With their wave around rule a car that lost 4 laps in that 8 hour stretch is back on the lead lap. Rather cheaply.

Takes away a lot of the importance of those 8 hours now. Need to keep the "endurance" in endurance racing.
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Old 4 Aug 2021, 21:18 (Ref:4065383)   #13
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These topics really come to head in the extended endurance races. For the GT WC Sprint races or even the IMSA 2 hour 40 minute races its not so bothersome. It is for the 24 hour races where it really stinks. Thankfully at Spa we had some green flag periods for multiple hours which really helped spread the field out. At the end of the day you know that the #32 Audi and #51 Ferrari were the class of the field.

At the Daytona 24 you can have 8 hours of non stop green, but then get 4 safety car periods within an hour and a half. With their wave around rule a car that lost 4 laps in that 8 hour stretch is back on the lead lap. Rather cheaply.

Takes away a lot of the importance of those 8 hours now. Need to keep the "endurance" in endurance racing.

Thankfully, at least some of those yellows would be "quick" or whatever they are called and the wave around does not happen during those AFAIK.
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Old 6 Aug 2021, 12:02 (Ref:4065599)   #14
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IMSA and SRO’s procedures are absolutely about keeping the field together. They barely pretend otherwise. Given the hyperventilating on commentary about how close and exciting the racing is and the publicity emphasis on last-lap shootouts, it’s deeply ingrained. I personally do not think of either IMSA or SRO races as being serious sporting competitions, they set out to be and succeed in being great spectacles, nothing more.
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Old 6 Aug 2021, 14:01 (Ref:4065617)   #15
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There are two extremes. They purposely throw cautions (etc.) to cause close racing is one. The other is that they avoid cautions (etc.) to be complete pure.

We were close to the first a few years back in IMSA I think. We haven’t been at the later since the 50s.

I do not believe that IMSA are so close to the first now. I’d describe it as they are cautious with safety (and there are other reasons to do this) and they are happy for the consequence on the racing.
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