[LM24] 2007 Le Mans entry list

[Hugewally]

For those that seem to have a problem grasping the actual invite, I have repeated this as it was posted before.

Its the Team not the car that get the invite. So any team that has been invited has until (and including) the 8th of Jan to decide if they want to get their hand on an ACO legal car and drop the ACO a nice fat deposit.

The Invite is not for the MC12

And that is the whole point. Why invite a team that doesn't run a legal car? When are they going to invite NASCAR and SuperGT teams then? And why stop there? Maybe DTM?

I smell a rat...

[Nordic]

Originally Posted by Hugewally

And that is the whole point. Why invite a team that doesn't run a legal car? When are they going to invite NASCAR and SuperGT teams then? And why stop there? Maybe DTM?

I smell a rat...

Because there are 3 other teams also invited, you could not invite those three without the other one. However do we doubt Vitaphone have the ability to run a good car? if they made the choice to get a proper ( )car I am sure they would run a good race.

I do not doubt the ACO has a bigger motive in this, but that is what rule makers/organising clubs etc, have to do, make deals. I doubt there would be any value in making a deal with NASCAR or the DTM. Super GT on the other hand, I would not mind if a couple of those teams are invited if it lead to an eventual harmonisation (sic) between Asia and Europe would you?

[Hugewally]

My sarcasm aside, the ACO invited a team that hasn't conformed to ACO rules all year long.

[Dani Filth]

FIA GT classes are won by strong teams
ACO want strong teams at LeMans
ACO invites strong teams(winning) from FIA GT for LeMans

I don't see the problem .. and I wouldn't have seen the trouble even if PWL would've got one too ..

[Nordic]

Yep thats right.

However Vitaphone have a choice to make now then don't they? ditch the MC12 and get a proper car(!). if this has come as a bolt out of the blue its a bit late now for them now as I would expect them to have already made their 07 plans, and as we know GT1 cars, or at least ones that can win, don't grow on trees. I guess they could hook up with another team for just the 24hrs.

Or Vitaphone (and the other 3 if it comes to it) can say thanks but no thanks and stick with the FIA and the MC12. I suspect the later and the ACO knew full well the invite would be turned down by Vitaphone, but can sit down with a smug French grin and a Pernod. The ball has been swiftly passed to the other court(s).

Either way the ACO has lost nothing but a bit of respect from the US, where it has less anyway, and it may have gained a worthy team to compete who would not otherwise have entered and another MC12 has been sold to a collector.

[rdjones]

As I seem to say every year in the thread about the Le Mans Entry List, it's the ACO's race, the ACO's rules and the ACO can invite who every they want. There is nothing we the fan's, Mr Ratal, IMSA and the FIA can do anything about.

[kingkai]

Originally Posted by Nordic

Yep thats right.

However Vitaphone have a choice to make now then don't they? ditch the MC12 and get a proper car(!). if this has come as a bolt out of the blue its a bit late now for them now as I would expect them to have already made their 07 plans, and as we know GT1 cars, or at least ones that can win, don't grow on trees. I guess they could hook up with another team for just the 24hrs.

Or Vitaphone (and the other 3 if it comes to it) can say thanks but no thanks and stick with the FIA and the MC12. I suspect the later and the ACO knew full well the invite would be turned down by Vitaphone, but can sit down with a smug French grin and a Pernod. The ball has been swiftly passed to the other court(s).

Either way the ACO has lost nothing but a bit of respect from the US, where it has less anyway, and it may have gained a worthy team to compete who would not otherwise have entered and another MC12 has been sold to a collector.

Maby a 2 car entry for the BMS aston's then?
Maby they planned this all along

[kingkai]

Originally Posted by Hugewally

Its 3cm too wide at the rear wheels.

get some concrete blocks, set them at the right distance and race the car between them, now you have a legal car...

Ontopic:
Let's wait till the 8th of january, we will have our answer then... (hopefully)

[Hammerdown]

Don't really see why it's such a big problem with the Mazza. I suppose it's mainly a case of two proud parties, neither of whom wants to back down, but it wouldn't be too hard to reach a compromise. After all, some of the advantage it had has been eroded by the narrow rear wing used in the FIA GT. Maybe the '3cm too wide' problem could be solved by having 3cm less rubber. Maybe slightly less drastic than Kingkai's suggestion above!

Whilst I don't like to see people building cars that are against the spirit of the rules (and yes I do know the rules were changed on them), it is a shame not to see them racing at lemans, so if a way of reducing their advantage can be found, then do it. Otherwise it's a case of 'cutting off your nose to spite your face'.

[Nordic]

Originally Posted by Hammerdown

Don't really see why it's such a big problem with the Mazza. I suppose it's mainly a case of two proud parties, neither of whom wants to back down, but it wouldn't be too hard to reach a compromise. After all, some of the advantage it had has been eroded by the narrow rear wing used in the FIA GT. Maybe the '3cm too wide' problem could be solved by having 3cm less rubber. Maybe slightly less drastic than Kingkai's suggestion above!

Whilst I don't like to see people building cars that are against the spirit of the rules (and yes I do know the rules were changed on them), it is a shame not to see them racing at lemans, so if a way of reducing their advantage can be found, then do it. Otherwise it's a case of 'cutting off your nose to spite your face'.

But where would you draw the line?

If a designer could see an advantage by laying down a car 'only a bit' outside the regs then I am sure they all would.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by TheNewBob

I think maybe they're aiming at rewarding a team's achievments in FIA GT rather than the car they used to do it with. Still doesn't make an awful lot of sense, though.

It's a way to recognise the FIA GT Championship and boost the GT classes in Europe, specifically GT1.

GT1 and GT2 play a supporting role in the LMS so it's important to recognize the teams that choose FIA GT's.

Altough PWL were treated harshly, they were competing in an ACO sanctioned series, all cars should have been running to full ACO regs if they expected Le Mans entries.

FIA GT has always had slight reg differences, the MC12 is unique being homologated soley for FIA GT's.

The ACO obviously decided to award Le Mans entries to FIA GT teams, regardless of specific FIA GT regs.

[Hammerdown]

Originally Posted by Nordic

But where would you draw the line?

If a designer could see an advantage by laying down a car 'only a bit' outside the regs then I am sure they all would.

I understand what you're saying, and it wouldn't be an easy thing to police, but if there was the threat of performance adjustments being made to negate any advantage, then hopefully people would respect that.

I appreciate that entering the murky world of performance balancing is not ideal, but then what is? I was just saying that it's a bit of a shame that the mazza isn't at lemans (in a suitably restricted form). It would be great to see a bigger battle in GT1.

[kingkai]

Originally Posted by Nordic

But where would you draw the line?

If a designer could see an advantage by laying down a car 'only a bit' outside the regs then I am sure they all would.

After a few years maby.
I thought I had read somewhere some time ago, that the ACO might
considder the MC-12 at LM after 2007... Not sure where or what it exactly was...

[Nordic]

Originally Posted by Hammerdown

I understand what you're saying, and it wouldn't be an easy thing to police, but if there was the threat of performance adjustments being made to negate any advantage, then hopefully people would respect that.

I appreciate that entering the murky world of performance balancing is not ideal, but then what is? I was just saying that it's a bit of a shame that the mazza isn't at lemans (in a suitably restricted form). It would be great to see a bigger battle in GT1.

I would have love to have seen a MC12 race at Le Mans as well, but the risk is you allow cars in the spirit of the Dauer Porsche 962 back in again. One race specials designed to flout the regs that other teams have worked so hard to complie with. This would deny the prospect of a class/overall win to teams that have supported a series and devalue there investment.

There should not be any need for performace balancing by sucess ballast, capping power etc. If you make a car that is within the regs, its up to the others to speed up, not the rule book to slow you down.

I hate this tampering that goes on more than anything else in modern car racing. It assumes that we are all idiots and that all racing cars are born equal. Success is hard won, and should be the result of hard driven, well designed cars, not given to you by virtue of escaping the notice of someone with the power to ballast you, or the result of some team whinging that your car is faster and robbing you of the power you spent $$$$£££ developing.

[SALEEN S7R]

On a slightly differnt note, the FIA GT Championship made a exception a few years ago to allow the Lister Storm to race in the GT class of the Championship against the Vipers and GT2 Porsches, it seems a shame to me that the ACO wont bend a little and allow the MC12 to race at Le Mans. True the Lister Storm never raced at Le Mans in its current form but I think you get what Im trying to say.

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by Hugewally

And that is the whole point. Why invite a team that doesn't run a legal car? When are they going to invite NASCAR and SuperGT teams then? And why stop there? Maybe DTM?

I smell a rat...

Yup something smells fishy.

So lets see . . .

ACO invites a team, that has a car that does not conform to ACO rules.
IF every team that recieves a ACO invite shows up expet the MC-12s
( and correct me if I am wrong, is the MC-12 on a few mm too long and wide to conform to ACO specs?)
Would Masseratti build or change the body work of the MC-12?

Or is this just one way some French orgization is putting the thumb screws to an Italian orginzation? In that case forget the invite.

[Hammerdown]

Originally Posted by Nordic

I would have love to have seen a MC12 race at Le Mans as well, but the risk is you allow cars in the spirit of the Dauer Porsche 962 back in again. One race specials designed to flout the regs that other teams have worked so hard to complie with. This would deny the prospect of a class/overall win to teams that have supported a series and devalue there investment.

There should not be any need for performace balancing by sucess ballast, capping power etc. If you make a car that is within the regs, its up to the others to speed up, not the rule book to slow you down.

I hate this tampering that goes on more than anything else in modern car racing. It assumes that we are all idiots and that all racing cars are born equal. Success is hard won, and should be the result of hard driven, well designed cars, not given to you by virtue of escaping the notice of someone with the power to ballast you, or the result of some team whinging that your car is faster and robbing you of the power you spent $$$$£££ developing.

Again, I hear what you're saying, but I'm suggesting this more as a concession. At the end of the day the ACO is answerable to no one. If someone tried to slip in a thinly disguised prototype that was just outside the regs they could and would say 'non!'

As we now roughly know the performance potential of the MC12, it seems a bit churlish to still keep it out. And the ACO could still insist on further restrictions (such as a tyre width reduction) and see if the teams were still interested in running them.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by AU N EGL

Yup something smells fishy.

So lets see . . .

ACO invites a team, that has a car that does not conform to ACO rules.
IF every team that recieves a ACO invite shows up expet the MC-12s
( and correct me if I am wrong, is the MC-12 on a few mm too long and wide to conform to ACO specs?)
Would Masseratti build or change the body work of the MC-12?

Or is this just one way some French orgization is putting the thumb screws to an Italian orginzation? In that case forget the invite.

They didn't invite Vitaphione, they invited the top two FIA GT teams.

It's upto Vitaphone to find a legal car.

The MC12's too old for Maserati to start altering the car, they'll concentrate on their next project.

[HORNDAWG]

Maybe they have something like this in GT-1 trim, hidden, and badged as a Maserati GranSport or Coupe??!!










L.P.

[Hugewally]

Originally Posted by AU N EGL

ACO invites a team, that has a car that does not conform to ACO rules.
IF every team that recieves a ACO invite shows up expet the MC-12s
( and correct me if I am wrong, is the MC-12 on a few mm too long and wide to conform to ACO specs?)
Would Masseratti build or change the body work of the MC-12?

Its not the bodywork thats the problem, but the drivetrain IIRC.

[Hammerdown]

Originally Posted by Hugewally

Its not the bodywork thats the problem, but the drivetrain IIRC.

In what way?

[old man]

Originally Posted by Hammerdown

Again, I hear what you're saying, but I'm suggesting this more as a concession. At the end of the day the ACO is answerable to no one. If someone tried to slip in a thinly disguised prototype that was just outside the regs they could and would say 'non!'

As we now roughly know the performance potential of the MC12, it seems a bit churlish to still keep it out. And the ACO could still insist on further restrictions (such as a tyre width reduction) and see if the teams were still interested in running them.

You simply can't do this, it becomes a feast for the lawyers, you lay down rules and invite people to enter cars that fit them, as you say in the US: PERIOD.

Rule tampering just confuses everybody and the championship gets decided in the court afterwards, not good for the spectator or anybody else

[AU N EGL]

the Week of Scrutineering inspections the cars get looked over with a fine tooth comb. If something is not JUST right. . . .. SO trying to 'slip one by' my guess it is not possible.

[Hammerdown]

I agree with you to a certain point. I agree with you completely when it comes to prototypes. But when it comes to 'road' cars then I think things are a bit different. With protos you're dealing with cars that are built specifically to the regulations solely for the purpose of racing. With modified 'road' cars you're dealing with apples and oranges and the regs will need to be adapted to allow for certain circumstances. Cars evolve, so must the regs. If the square peg doesn't fit the round hole, then get your knife out!

I don't know the complete history of the ACO vs Maserati thing, but it seems the ACO changed the rules as the Mazza was being built. Maybe they got wind of them trying to slip something in under the radar and took evasive action. I don't know, but that's my hunch and good on them if that is the case. But now the performance of the MC12 is a known quantity surely it could be allowed to race with appropriate restrictions so that it doesn't upset the apple cart. Besides the ACO has constantly tweaked the regs as and when it saw fit. If they want you to race, they'll give you a break. They could always invent another class for it if they wanted to.

[F360]

Originally Posted by Hammerdown

But now the performance of the MC12 is a known quantity surely it could be allowed to race with appropriate restrictions so that it doesn't upset the apple cart.

I can't see Vitaphone wanting to run at Le Mans with a carry thus restricted ?
Unless they can conjure up a deal in the next 10 days or so to run something else, I can't see Mr.Bartels at Le Mans with the MC12.

FIA GT 2007 and then thats it. No more MC12. IMHO !