Should four-doors be allowed in Nations Cup?

[pplater]

I haven't been haunting forums for too long, so this question may have been posed. I understand that the nations cup only allows 2-door cars to compete. is this a method of keeping it seperate from the "taxis" or because 2-door cars are romantically percieved to be more sporting than others?

Maybe because the majority of cars with NC performance are 2-doors and that's how the series became separated from GTP?

The reason I ask is that having followed SAE Racing in the lead up to the 24hr, I have grown to like the BMW 320i, a car that (now unhapered by electronic gremlins) is a seriously quick piece. A quick car with no-where to race is sad, and NC could be a chance at it getting a run.

The 320 STW (super touring wagon(?)shares many common factors with NC Cars.

1- it is based on a road car with sporting pedigree
2- it shares the same engine block as the road car
3- it shares the same body as the road car
4- it is capable of competitive lap-times
5- it was designed and construced by a major motorsport company (micheletto etc) and is not a back-yard special.

An adjustment to the series could even open up the doors to future four-door contenders (V-10 M5 anyone?) from both Australian and foreign entrants.

pplater.

[Arai GP5]

I think PROCAR are keener to bypass the ex-super tourer BMW's, and go straight for the two door M3 GT cars, like the example PHR ran (John Bowe, et al) at the 24hr.

But your point about ex-super tourers is relevant. They are great (especially the BMW) cars, even if a little expensive to run at their maximum. Just look at how many are around the world for sale!!! It's just asking for some sort of category in Australia to allow them to race, bar the once off appearance as Invitational Class entries at the 24hr.

[aj_308]

it doesn't exactly fit into the "cheap to maintain" bracket though, does it?

[pplater]

The engine rebuild before B24 attests to that...

probably cheaper to find parts for than the orphan M3 GTRs

[racer69]

They can run the BMW 320i in the Wakefield Touring Challenge, and up until the end of last year, there was, at least on paper rather than actual events, a Super Touring Championship being run.

[pplater]

No ST championship this year, the car holds the class lap record at wakefield.

What about the larger issue at stake, why shouldn't four-doors compete in NC?

[aj_308]

maybe its the exotic factor, a four door bimmer isn't exactly flash.

[pplater]

...nor a 2-door commodore

(yes, i know it's much more than that)

[Arai GP5]

Maybe its just PROCAR trying to keep Nations Cup looking GT? Are there any examples of four door cars being run in the GT or GTS classes in ALMS, LMES, FIA series, or the Le Mans 24hr? Those classes also have a two door rule, don't they?

[aj_308]

at least the monaro is a sports offering, the m5 should be a go though.

[deeks6]

Why not a 5 door...or station wagons?

[pplater]

too right about the M5. or maybe that 10 000rpm screamer in something else?

A Z4 GTR?

four-door wise, though, Australia rives sedans. We (collective, not enthusiasts) like to watch four doors race, and like to think our family transport is intrinsically related to what we see on T.V.

We all know the "Win on Sunday, Sell on Monday" addage, and I belive that the GT-Perf. category is the continuation of a concept that began eons ago.

As for NC, if the way was opened for four-doors, it could be a way for Toyota/Mitsubishi/Audi to return to tarmac racing in Australia.

Mitsubishi have a (small) loyal fan base, but need to take some of Holden/Ford sales to properly ascertain their future.

Toyota have a good chassis in the camry, have proven their motorsport interests by throwing substantial $$$ at their silhouette corolla rally program, and could be enticed to do a mongrel (Jap GT500 motor?) camry for NC.

Audi have just released a nice 4-door DTM beast (V8, RWD) that could do NC (not to mention supercedded TT-Rs)and there is an RS6 in the states that is doing well in a "Roadracing" series over there.

Procar may not like it, but i believe four-doors have a place in the NC.

[racer69]

GT Sportscar racing has traditionally been for 2 door coupes, hence why 2 door cars only are allowed. I really don't see the problem, it's like that in most other GT Championships in the world.

The only GT Championship i know running 4 door cars in the Speed Channel GT World Challenge in the USA, Volvo the other week announced a factory team of S60's (one driven by Derek Bell), but the cars seem built more like Touring Cars, rather than a 4 door GT car.

There mightn't be a standalone Super Touring Chamionship this year, but they can compete in the Wakefield Touring Challenge, which is designed as a catch for Touring Cars (like ST) which don't have a home anymore.

[Arai GP5]

The Donut King stunt boys (Matt and Co) have got a van that can do burnouts. Why not chuck one of them in...

But in all seriousness, Ford do a V8 conversion for a Focus!!!! Now that would humm across the top of the mountain come November!

[pplater]

Originally posted by racer69

There mightn't be a standalone Super Touring Chamionship this year, but they can compete in the Wakefield Touring Challenge, which is designed as a catch for Touring Cars (like ST) which don't have a home anymore.

SuperTouring cars are pricey to maintain (old, too) and those dollars have to come from somewhere. events like B24 and NC are the only ways to get the (decent)sponsorship to keep them on the road.

as for other GT series, i think that if the manufacturers put forward a 4-door, it may get through.

The Audi RS6 is available in a 5-door, so it's possible...

I do, however like the sounds of the new MG ZT 260. a mate of mine does PR for MG motorsport stuff in the UK, it will race, but i dont know where...

[pplater]

(sigh) i need to post faster...

yeah, the van looks like fun, but Procar like to promote the NC as the worlds best GT teams and cars, or something, and i'm sure they have limits. can't they move though???

I remember when B24 started, RossP said that the Nur.24 was his inspiration, and everything from Audi touring cars, (TT-R?) Porsches (esp. Alzen 996TT.mmm) Vipers (or was that spa?) and heaps of other good stuff. B24 invites all and sundry to compete (keep it that way) and it'd be nice to see a series culminating in B24.

If everything works out, Alzen will bring their 996TT to B24'04 and that'd be a fair munro chaser. it would be interesting to compare that to the GT3 RSR of Freisinger...

[racer69]

If Toyota, Mitsubishi, Audi etc...wanted to run 4 door cars anywhere they would be now. If they pushed hard enough they would be in V8Supercars, and GT-Performance is sitting there just waiting for them to enter.

Why couldn't Toyota run a Supra? Audi one of the ex-DTM Audi TT-R's? There are cars available for them to run, as many seem to point out nowadays (though i don't always agree), it is more about brand image these days, rather than showing off the merits of an individual production car.

And what about the parity of a Super Touring BMW compared to the current crop of Nations Cup pacesetters?

[pplater]

NC Grp 2...
as quick as the maseratis and atmo porsches. the 911 RS would be quicker, but at the creek, indy, PI, sandown, it'd be a beast.

[stoned pony]

We have to keep in mind, too, that some (a lot, actually) manufacturers and importers don't want to get involved with local racing.
They see it all in dollar terms and it goes something like this: to support a $2 million motorsport effort (and remember, they are not just talking the cost of cars on a track but also the cost of paying $200+ a head to put people in corporate boxes, advertising and all the other accumulated dross) means selling a sh!tload of cars.
So a company like Alfa Romeo importer Ateco, for example, and Audi as another example, simple cost factors mean they woould have to double or even triple their local sales to make it affordable and those numbers are just not going to happen.
For them there is better value in promoting their successes in the World Rally Championship, Le Mans, ALMS or F1 just to use a few examples.
Running full page adverts in the capital city fish wrappers boasting about Citroen winning the Monte Carlo Rally is w-a-y cheaper than actually putting a car in the Australian Rally Championship.
Sorry for rambling but I think what I'm trying to say is we can hope for a whole lot of different cars in a whole lot of different racing series' but they are not gonna happen.
Hands-up all those who saw the BMW bosses running up and down pitlane handing-out great wads of cash to the BMW teams running in last year's Bathurst 24-hour.
No, thought not.
Hell, their PR people didn't even know that Wayne Russell is apparently doing a deal WITH BMW to run a couple of Mini Cooper S models in GT-P this year.
I'm going back to take some more of my tablets now.....

[GTRMagic]

Is the Russell deal with BMW or local dealer Klosters?

And I struggle to get too excited about manufacturers coming in with works outfits given the reception to the Monaro

[pplater]

Not sure about that one...
I've seen a few John Cooper Works minis at the dealer, so possibly. to be blunt, though, Newcastle is "Financially Depressed" compared to NE Sydney, Gold Coast, etc, so there would be less benifit for a hunter dealer. The deal could be just for the original purchase of the cars, not for the round-to round expenses. just hypothesizing, though...

[stoned pony]

I can only go by one of Procar's recent releases regarding the Minis. I have spoken at length with Wayne about it but I think the details are basically "off the record". I'm sure he will make everything public when he is ready for the world to know.

[Monaro]

Originally posted by racer69
GT Sportscar racing has traditionally been for 2 door coupes, hence why 2 door cars only are allowed. I really don't see the problem, it's like that in most other GT Championships in the world.

So were does the new Mazda RX8 fit in.It has 4 doors but only 2 openings.

[pplater]

RossP already said no to the RX-8.

[kmchow]

Originally posted by racer69
If Toyota, Mitsubishi, Audi etc...wanted to run 4 door cars anywhere they would be now. If they pushed hard enough they would be in V8Supercars, and GT-Performance is sitting there just waiting for them to enter.

Last I heard, Ford/Holden were bitterly trying to keep Toyota/Mitsu out of V8 Supercars.

If they really wanted to run 4 doors so bad, they should just start their own series. They should start an Australian championship based on the ETCC or Super 2000 (S2000) rules.

Why struggle so hard to race in a series which doesn't want you? With 2 dedicated manufacturers, I'm sure they could keep their own S2000 series.