Methanol's history

[karimbo]

Does anyone know when has methanol been introduced in the serie as fuel and for what reason it has replaced "normal" gasoline ?

[jjspierx]

Originally Posted by karimbo

Does anyone know when has methanol been introduced in the serie as fuel and for what reason it has replaced "normal" gasoline ?

I'm not sure on the histroy of methanol and when they started using it, but I'm sure it was about the time that the big turbo's and massive boost were introduced to the series. Methanol has a MUCH higher detonation point then gasoline and that is why it is used. Unlike Forumula 1, Champcars have turbos and they run ridiculous levels of boost, I think they use something like 42-44psi at road courses currently. A stock street car with a turbo(like say a WRX or something) probably runs something around 6-9psi(for comparison). Their are two problems about running that much boost(which is why a street car could never run with that much). First off, fuel delivery. 42psi is a HUGE amount of pressurised air being shot into the intake stream and into the combustion chamber. Without enough fuel to compensate for the air, the engine would run lean and ping and detonate until the engine was toast. No big deal for a champcar though, as they have massive fuel injectors, that most of us could never afford in our street cars. The other problem is that pressuring air creates massive amounts of heat. As the turbine compresses the air it gets very hot before continuing on into the intercooler, which as it sounds like, cools the air. But still the air is very hot comared to a street car, and then it gets mixed with the fuel which makes is very combustible. Then as the air/fuel mixture moves into the combustion chamber its gets compressed further. With the heat involved in a Champcar, if they used regular gasoline, as the piston moved up to compress the air before the spark plug ignited it(to push the piston back down of course), it would detonate(which is very different from combustion). This makes the engine lose power and is hard on the engine internals. Methanol, as I said earlier has a much higher threshold before it detonates. It takes much higher temparatures before it detonates, so the piston can fully compress the air/methanol mixture allowing it to combust when the spark plug ignites it.

[Mike_Wooshy]

I feel a merge coming on .

[jjspierx]

huh?

[ysofast]

A stock street car with a turbo(like say a WRX or something) probably runs something around 6-9psi(for comparison). Quoted from jjspierx
My truck runs 38 lbs (c15 cat) but only because the intercooler is the size of my kitchen table and no fuel is introduce until piston hits tdc. Your right about the reasons you mentioned. And I also agree with the huh?

[Mike_Wooshy]

well i dunno if its a merge as such, but he posted the EXACT same thing in the IRL fourm ........

[Flatspot]

As I understand it the use of methanol has nothing to do with turbocharging. Many non-turbo race engines burn methanol. It was introduced to indy style racing in the '60's because unlike gasoline a methanol fire can be extiguished with water. It was purely a safety move.

Here is a link that discusses different racing fuels,Racing Fuel Link

[dubby99]

Have you also noticed that champcars don't use intercoolers.

It's the sweet methanol that cools the hot inlet charge coming from the compresser removing the need for an intercooler.

How sweet

[indycool]

Flatspot is correct. After the awful '64 fire and explosion at Indy that killed Dave MacDonald and Eddie Sachs, methanol was chosen as an alternative because it has a much higher flashpoint., i.e., it doesn't catch fire as easily and has far less explosive tendencies. It has nothing to do with turbos.

[Snrub]

I've always found the lack of intercooler pretty darn amazing. Does anyone know what the compression ratio is of the current cosworths? I believe the previous generation of IRL engines were @ ~18:1, but that's a different situation.

jjspierx is certainly right about the differences between the typical boost of street cars and CCs, although the correct number is 41.5psi, not 42psi. Just for a little contrast the Mitsubishi Evo VIII is the highest stock street car I'm aware of and it's apparently now up to 19psi (276hp, 2.0L, 8.8:1 CR), which is really rare. Another anomoly is the Dodge SRT-4 which puts out 14psi. The Ford turbo 2.3L in the Mustang and Thunderbirds from the 80s were between 12-14psi I believe, which was quiet unusual back then, but I think it had a really low CR ~7.5:1. Lately there have been a some breaking of the traditional street levels of boost and the CR run on those engines, such as with the forthcommming Audi/VW direct injection engines.

[karimbo]

JJSPIERX !!!

Thank you for your explanation !! It's very clear now. So I guess methanol arriver with the big turbo engines...

[Kicking-back]

As another poster has said, Methanol arrived long before "big turbo engines".

[Omega99]

Henry Ford wanted to power his automobiles with methanol/ethanol, but because of prohibition he had to go with gasoline.

[macdaddy]

That's really interesting, Omega. Did Henry Ford invent the internal-combustion engine?

[Alex Hodgkinson]

is that a serious question?

[macdaddy]

Was that a serious answer?

[mmciau]

I believe methanol use in Champcars stems from history!

Speedway in the US and Australasia used methanol after WWII in the speedcars and solo motorcycles because petrol was difficult to obtain particularly in Australia and (as a secondary issue) for safety. USAC, the governing body for speedway in the US not only has the speedcar midgets but also had the mile oval cars (Offenhausers) in the 50-60s which ran on methanol. The builders of the mile oval cars also contructed the Indy 500 Roadsters that were Offenhauser 4.2 litre methanol burners.

Then rear engine cars, the break up of the two camps (IRL and Champcars, etc, etc).

Methanol is still used but I understand that may change in one of the groups.

BTW, IIRC, some pre WWII Grand Prix cars in the 1930s ran on all sorts of concoctions.

Mike

[Omega99]

Christian Huygens desinged (but never built) the first internal combustion engine in 1680. In 1807 Francois Isaac de Rivaz built the first internal combustion engine that used a combination of hydrogen and oxygen for fuel, but it wasn't a very successful design. After that there were various people over time that refined the designs/fuels, etc, but as far as I know Henry Ford really had little to do with the invention or innovation of the internal combustion engine. In fact, he had little to do with the invention and innovation of the automobile itself. Instead, his major contribution was the integration of the assembly line that increased production and drove down the cost of the automobile to the point where it was affordable for pretty much everybody.

My knowledge of his desire to use methanol/ethanol as a fuel comes from a research project I did on alternative fuels. His decision was based on the energy output of methanol/ethanol compared to gasoline. In other words, it was more efficient. However, that was then, and with the hundred years or so of R&D that has gone into both the internal combustion engine and gasoline they have become optimised for one another.