The "Good Old Days" were they?

[Dobbo89]

Originally posted by Robert Ryan
Arrgh8, said "apathy" was a very common attitude in Australia. The attitude was "How can we hope to do that we are a country of X number of people" "Well they do not do that overseas, it is just a peculiar Australian thing". That attitude is still part of our Culture, but very much reduced. The problem in Australian racing, is that local fans do not see the intrinsic worth of some of the things that are done here. "Everything is bigger and better overseas" which is in quite a few cases totally false.

Apathy? only x amount of people? who was the first to make racecam work, where do BMW look for there racing transmisions, who showed NASCAR how to beef up their brakes, or for that matter run in the wet? now those examples are the only stuff I can remember, there is plenty more from where that came from, I wont even bother going into the brabham owner/manufacturer/driver thing... Aussies/kiwi's always undervalue their contribution to motorsports, but time and again we have proved that we can do better than those with unlimited budgets and x times x amount of people.

[deeks6]

Originally posted by Robert Ryan
pete 55, if we keep on mentioning it will. Thomo's first driver for the Mercedes was a very youthful John Bowe. He raced it before Bryan decided to make the car more of a cross between a Porsche and a Mercedes 450.

Not quite right. Bryan drove the Merc himself first. It was an awesome beast ... some may remember a fantastic race with the Gardner Corvair at Sandown - it was the first car that could compete with the Corvair but it had a fuel problem and Thommo had to back off and lost both races.

He told me they were getting 1200+ horsepower out of the thing at one stage but they could not build an exhaust system to cope...I've seen the pipes, they would hold up a building. As Bryan put it "It ended up being an exercise in futility."

Nevertheless, back to the driver thing. When Bryan went all out to win the GT championship, he bought Bob Jane's Monza and ran it in conjunction with the Merc, picking the car most suitable at each track. IIRC the year was 1985 and the driver who drove the car that Bryan passed on was none other than a very youthful Brad Jones, who's dad, like mine was a good mate of Thommo's. I can remember one race where Brad drove the Merc at Calder and almost beat the top sports cars (came 3rd from memory). That Sports/GT championship was one of the best years of the title - some stunning equipment.

The Merc also competed in the World Sportscar championship race at Sandown, against the 956's and co. Some of the overses folk were staggered at the performance of this "unsophisticated" machine, lapping only about 5 or 6 seconds a lap slower than the 956s on the extended track.

[Steve Holmes]

I thought Jim Richards' Falcon XC hardtop was the first car capable of footing it with the Corvair.

[Steve Holmes]

By the way deeks6, I love your Norm Beechey quote. Which car was he referring to?

[pete55]

I think it was the HK Monaro 327 but not sure.

[Robert Ryan]

deeks6 not really. Bryan eventually drove the car when they had the turbo Chevy sorted, prior to that John Bowe, ran some races in the car(this is well before it was sorted). The car was intially backed by the City Of Shepparton,which I think is unique for Australian Racing.

[Robert Ryan]

Steve Holmes correct : The Falcon believe it or not weighed roughly the same as the Corvair and had about as much horsepower. Yes it was as quick.

[Bruce Moxon]

Brad Jones also drove the Mercedes (in an earlier incarnation) at th 1980 Grand Prix meeting at Calder. Had a nasty crash in it at the end of the back straight.

How long before there's a serious push for some of these old cars to be allowed in historic racing? I was flicking through an old Racing Car News last night (here's a picture of Moxon's social life - old RCN's on a Saturday night, before turning in early) and there were some super memories in there - like Phil Ward knocking off the Corvair at Oran Park, much to Frank's disgust.

FYI, the McCormack Charger is undergoing restoration.

Bruce Moxon

[Robert Ryan]

Dobbo9. I guess we are talking about two different things. Yes you are 100% right, there is no apathy when it comes to innovations in Australian Racing. My problem with Australia racing is not that. It is the attitude,"That things are better overseas" the "undervaluation of their contribution of motorsport" as you put it.
Who is developing Racecam now ? Yes the US, not Australia. The NASCAR expertise? gone to the US, with some of the stars of Aussie NASCAR. Brabham's cars? bought by another European racing concern...then run into the ground by Bernie E. No Australian consortium tried to takeover.

[Steve Holmes]

Bruce Moxon, good point. I'm surprised Australia hasn't really got into having some of the old sports sedans appear at classic meetings, as there were certainly some very special cars to have come out of that country. I guess a few of them are sitting around peoples garages, awaiting restoration, but nothing creates inspiration like having actually having somewhere to run them again.

The McCormack Charger and Geoghegan Monaro have both been found. Tino Leo has the Bob Jane Monaro and Rowan Harman has the ex Gardner 67 Camaro. I know the ex Red Dawson Chevy Monza went to Aus, and was raced for many years by Jeff Barnes. Does he still have it? What happened to the Richards Falcon hardtop?

There has been a resurgence in classic Sports Sedans here in NZ, and the cars are really a pleasure to behold. The ex Rod Coppins 67 Camaro, PDL Mustang I and PDL Mustang II, the ex Bruce Cary V8 Capri, ex Graham Baker V8 Capri, ex Grant Brennan V8 Escort, etc all appear regularly in classic racing here. As do several old Allcomer cars, like Ron Sylvesters pre war Chevy Coupe, Fahey Breadvan Lotus Anglia, the Lincoln powered Topolino bodied Jennings Special. I know the ex Red Dawson 70 Camaro, and ex Rod Coppins 69 Trans-Am Pontiac Firebird are both currently being restored.

Speaking of the Thompson Merc, it was recently bought by a New Zealander and imported here.

[Bruce Moxon]

"Lincoln powered Topolino bodied Jennings Special"

Bloody Hell! The engine would be as big as the car. Any photos on the net? Dad had a Topolino - only a road car and it was diabolical at 40mph, so one with grunt would be terrifying.

Come to think of it, NZ had a few cars that required some bravery to drive- how about that Lycoming-engined special? Had a WW2 Lycoming aircraft engine - I think it was a straight 8.

I'm starting to think the Thompson Merc might have been two cars?



Bruce Moxon

[William Dale Jr]

Originally posted by Steve Holmes
What happened to the Richards Falcon hardtop?

I know Tony Hubbard bought it when Richo was done with it - nearly totalled the car in that big wreck at AIR in 1983. Last I saw, it was being punted around by Robin Doherty, but that was many years ago now.

Thommo's Merc was a weapon, wasn't it? When I was growing up, they had just gone back to Sports Sedan regs instead of combining them with the GT cars. They had an awesome race at Winton. Bob Jolly's Commodore won out, but the dice Thommo's Benz had with Dominic Beninca's little turbo Alfa GTV will remain with me for a long time to come

[deeks6]

Originally posted by Steve Holmes
By the way deeks6, I love your Norm Beechey quote. Which car was he referring to?

I'd have to double check with the old man but I'm sure it refers to the S4 Holden EH and an interstate meeting. Norm blew his engine in practice then blew the spare. He only had some "old nail" of a motor left and it took them all night to build it and put the good bits on. So it did'nt even get a warm up.
Dad asked him how he would go - thats when the reply came. Incidentally, the motor kept going and he won the race. I'll get the details.

[mickj]

Didn't Thommos VW have a twin, from what I can remember 2 brothers built up a similiar car, but CAMS would not let it race. Anyone know anything about it.

Deeks6 your father was/is the best race caller that Sandown,Calder,Winton,Hume Weir, and PI ever had.

[deeks6]

Originally posted by mickj
Didn't Thommos VW have a twin, from what I can remember 2 brothers built up a similiar car, but CAMS would not let it race. Anyone know anything about it.

Deeks6 your father was/is the best race caller that Sandown,Calder,Winton,Hume Weir, and PI ever had.

Indeed he was. He regualrly has dinner with Bryan and Loel so I'll get him to clarify a few things.

I'm a bit intrigued by the John Bowe Mercedes thing...I can't remember him driving it but I do recall something about "City of Shepparton" sponsorship and I have a fleeting memory that it started life as a non-turbo V8. Anyway, I can get that clarified easy enough.

I agree we need to have these cars racing again at the historics, if nothing else. What a blast that would be, if we could find them. I know Muscle Car has tracked down a number of them but there's a few more I would'nt mind knowing about - if anyone has some info:

- The Marina V8 - can't remember who drove it
- Phil Lucas Volvo V8
- The Goss Jaguar
- Ron Harrops V8 EH - that thing really flew
- Dick Johnsons V8 Torana - I think it was a Ford V8 too!
- A whole pile of Cortina V8's - Crea (Mann?), Moore etc
- The Edmondson BMW 2002 V8
- The Richards Falcon - was it the Goss one?
- Foley's Alfa GTAM
- A Kharman Ghia sports sedan - can't remember who had it but it was a pretty thing.
- Garry Rogers also had a Monaro - anyone know who's that was or did he build it?
- Jim McKeown's Porsche

[Robert Ryan]

deeks6 You can ask Bryan as John was on the frontpage of and old "Road and Track" with the car and he was listed as the driver. Think it was 1975 from memory.

[Robert Ryan]

Garry also had a Torana he raced at AIR in 1983 as well.

[mickj]

Deeks6
J Bowe raced the Benz which had the 'Auadvalve' motor fitted, then it ran the Chev with the twin turbos.
Ken Hastings raced the Karmann Ghia with a FVA motor?
Bruce Watt ran the Marina V8.
Mick

[Steve Holmes]

Bruce Moxon. Jennings special pic attached taken by Euan Cameron for NZCC a couple of years ago. Car only had Topolino body. Chassis was something else.

The Richards and Goss Falcons were different cars. Richards car was full space frame, built in NZ by Murray Bunn among others. Was a long time coming, as a replacement for the elderly Sidchrome Mustang. I remember when it came out to NZ and took on Leo Leonard in the PDL II Mustang. they had some great battles. I remember them at Manfield, the PDL II had a huge rear wing the size of a shed roof, mounted way way up in the air on tall spindly struts.

Those cars, with their unmuffled exhausts, made such a noice when they went by, it was like being punched in the stomach! Those things you never forget.

I saw the Richards car in Auto Action a few years ago, racing in a State sports sedan race. Had the name Booth on the windscreen.

The Garry Rogers Monaro was the ex Geoghegan Craven Mild car.

[thunder road]

the harrop 'eh' became the wayne mankhin 'turbo''eh',

[deeks6]

Mick, I had a feeling the Marina was Ken Delforce but Watts also sounds right...maybe same car.

[275 GTB-4]

Originally posted by deeks6
Indeed he was. He regualrly has dinner with Bryan and Loel so I'll get him to clarify a few things.

I'm a bit intrigued by the John Bowe Mercedes thing...I can't remember him driving it but I do recall something about "City of Shepparton" sponsorship and I have a fleeting memory that it started life as a non-turbo V8. Anyway, I can get that clarified easy enough.

I agree we need to have these cars racing again at the historics, if nothing else. What a blast that would be, if we could find them. I know Muscle Car has tracked down a number of them but there's a few more I would'nt mind knowing about - if anyone has some info:

- The Marina V8 - can't remember who drove it
- Phil Lucas Volvo V8
- The Goss Jaguar
- Ron Harrops V8 EH - that thing really flew
- Dick Johnsons V8 Torana - I think it was a Ford V8 too!
- A whole pile of Cortina V8's - Crea (Mann?), Moore etc
- The Edmondson BMW 2002 V8
- The Richards Falcon - was it the Goss one?
- Foley's Alfa GTAM
- A Kharman Ghia sports sedan - can't remember who had it but it was a pretty thing.
- Garry Rogers also had a Monaro - anyone know who's that was or did he build it?
- Jim McKeown's Porsche

Wonderful weapons all of em......but getting the conservative, open wheel oriented, Historic movement to embrace them might be a big ask...

[pete55]

No, two different cars. Harrops had Repco V8, Mahnkens a turbo six.
There were some good four cylinder Sports Sedans. Escorts of Bill O'Gorman, Phil Ward, Bill Fanning and many more, a lot of quick Mini's including Paul Gulson's wild one.
But the real interesting cars were the original four cylinder cars with V8's stuffed in them.
Porsches run as sports sedans made an impact. Jim McKeown, Bill Brown, Ian and Leo Geoghegan, Alan Hamilton, Brian Foley, Ray Thackwell etc.
You could go on forever.

[thunder road]

just spoke to 'wayne mankhin',the 'eh' he raced was most definately the ex-harrop car,tom nailard from sydney originally built/ started the 'corvair' (along the simular lines to one racing in 'england') ando from 'backside racing' ( or was it 'trackside),and why do we require the "historic movments" bloody permission , lets just do it !!!!!!!!!i've got the moulds to 'bob janes' monza behind my workshop, theres a start????bob actually at a meeting,recently subjested "what about the return of 'sports sedans', like he's got the track, i'm sure for a feild of some thirty cars he would let us 'race' there!!!!!!!!!!

[spa-eau rouge]

firstlly ,MORRIS 1100 , get your facts right before you go to print on forum's , i myself was an apprentice @ REPCO BRABHAM ,[1965 /1968] ,and it didn't happen the way you the way you described events of the erea . i have enough info to write a book on the subject. back on forum , i am the owner of the stillwell mk 1 BDA/G MK 1 ford escort [1974 to now] and the car is complete in evey respect, including all the correct CAMS ,log books.