Drivers to marshal?

[Suze]

Some may remember an almost identical thread appearing in the marshals forum a short time ago. I appreciate some drivers may have "crossed over" to the marshals forum to have commented there, but then there are also the people who like to stick to their "own" forum, hence starting this thread in the racers forum, instead.

Having marshalled my first event in August (a sprint at North Weald organised by Sevenoaks & District MC), it led me to think about how much drivers actually know about marshalling.

It was shown at the AS show that some F1 people (eg Ecclestone) seem to know very little about marshalling, but how much do the top level / club level etc drivers actually know? The idea of drivers turning up to a club meeting and actually having to contribute towards it may not be a bad idea, and give them a better idea of what marshals actually do.

What are your thoughts?

[R59]

Encouraged, but not mandatory.

You can never tell if you will have time at a meeting to perform any marshalling duties. With my contraption, I would find it difficult as I seem to spend more time fixing it than actually driving it!

However, people should not pigeon-hole marshalling into donning the orange and waving flags.

There is a need for all sorts of people to help push the machine along that is "running the race meeting". You could become a scrutineer, or a timekeeper, a paddock marshall, etc.. etc..

Good thread Suze, it should generate some "heated debate".

Rob.

[Austinspace75]

I'm all for this and have voted as such.

Having spent most of my 31 years helping and watching my ol' man race in various classes throughout the 80's, 90's and 00's, I've recently got into the sort of financial stability that allows me to compete as well and I'm very glad that I am. However, across this period of time I've been in the privileged if somewhat distressing position of spectator to the decline in Driver and Marshall numbers throughout the sport. For me and I suspect other 'sons of', its been a life long intention to compete and fulfil what is now so ingrained in my blood i.e. a total love of racing cars and circuit racing in general. So, I am only too happy to commit to anything that might improve the situation. The likelihood of this sport descending into obscurity and the circuit closures that will come if this trend isn't stopped, just as I’m starting to compete, is frankly quite frightening to me.

One weekend is hardly going to hurt is it?
I know nothing about marshalling, but would imagine that a rule such as this would make a BIG difference.

Here's a suggestion: Introduce basic marshalling skills into the ARDS test, and make attendance at 1 meeting a compulsory element in order to gain the first licence. Thereafter, a competitor must prove attendance as a marshall within the last 12 months to be able to renew their licence at the end of each year, or anytime prior to licence application.

And another: Actively encourage existing marshalls to compete if they fancy it and can afford to. Set up a mechanism by which regular marshalls get preferential entry fees for their first year of competition.

Just ideas that’s all. But we need some new ideas, and fast. There is a real danger that the current aging grid/s of drivers and marshalls are not replaced before they retire - when they won’t care so much anyway. After all, they’ve enjoyed the last 30 years. If enough of the young-uns start acting now, then we could see another 30 years of great club racing. I personally can’t bear the thought of the alternative.

[Sheila M]

Originally Posted by Austinspace75

I'm all for this and have voted as such.

Having spent most of my 31 years helping and watching my ol' man race in various classes throughout the 80's, 90's and 00's, I've recently got into the sort of financial stability that allows me to compete as well and I'm very glad that I am. However, across this period of time I've been in the privileged if somewhat distressing position of spectator to the decline in Driver and Marshall numbers throughout the sport. For me and I suspect other 'sons of', its been a life long intention to compete and fulfil what is now so ingrained in my blood i.e. a total love of racing cars and circuit racing in general. So, I am only too happy to commit to anything that might improve the situation. The likelihood of this sport descending into obscurity and the circuit closures that will come if this trend isn't stopped, just as I’m starting to compete, is frankly quite frightening to me.

One weekend is hardly going to hurt is it?
I know nothing about marshalling, but would imagine that a rule such as this would make a BIG difference.

Here's a suggestion: Introduce basic marshalling skills into the ARDS test, and make attendance at 1 meeting a compulsory element in order to gain the first licence. Thereafter, a competitor must prove attendance as a marshall within the last 12 months to be able to renew their licence at the end of each year, or anytime prior to licence application.

And another: Actively encourage existing marshalls to compete if they fancy it and can afford to. Set up a mechanism by which regular marshalls get preferential entry fees for their first year of competition.

Just ideas that’s all. But we need some new ideas, and fast. There is a real danger that the current aging grid/s of drivers and marshalls are not replaced before they retire - when they won’t care so much anyway. After all, they’ve enjoyed the last 30 years. If enough of the young-uns start acting now, then we could see another 30 years of great club racing. I personally can’t bear the thought of the alternative.

Good ideas but ...

I would not want to marshal with a driver who was there compulsorily. Forcing someone to do something they may not want to do is not a good idea when safety is at stake.

Having said that. upgrading signatures can be obtained from the Clerk of the Course for any driver who has done a day's marshalling instead of competing.

Some series include in their regs that drivers should spend a day marshalling, which is nice but I'm sure on this. I think drivers should WANT to contribute, not be forced to.

[ss_collins]

I am a very very firm believer that to hold a National B (or higher) licence of any type you must marshal at least once a year (excluding the first year where is should only be reccomended). It should be mandatory. It is only one day a year and there is no real excuse - big names etc are included in this, with the spread of events you shouldn't have to go too far (unless you live on Mull - maybe thats a valid excuse!)

Colin McRae drives a course car on his own event I guess that counts, Steve Vodka Kick Perez is known for marshalling road rallies in his area - whats to stop someone like the new BF3 champion marshalling a clubbie at Brands?

NO EXCUSE IS VALID. (yes I've marshalled this year)

[Sheila M]

Originally Posted by ss_collins

I am a very very firm believer that to hold a National B (or higher) licence of any type you must marshal at least once a year (excluding the first year where is should only be reccomended). It should be mandatory. It is only one day a year and there is no real excuse - big names etc are included in this, with the spread of events you shouldn't have to go too far (unless you live on Mull - maybe thats a valid excuse!)

Colin McRae drives a course car on his own event I guess that counts, Steve Vodka Kick Perez is known for marshalling road rallies in his area - whats to stop someone like the new BF3 champion marshalling a clubbie at Brands?

NO EXCUSE IS VALID. (yes I've marshalled this year)

Can I suggest that you read the Blue Book - thats the book thingy that keeps your licence from crumpling in the post.

[ss_collins]

Don't be silly - I'm fully aware of whats written in the blue book - perhaps more than most as I refer to it on a day to day basis as part of my job, and FIA, IMSA, Super GT, ACO, SCCA regs...

the point I was making was that I think it should be mandatory... which is the point of this thread isn't it?

[Notso Swift]

Originally Posted by Sheila M

Good ideas but ...

I would not want to marshal with a driver who was there compulsorily. Forcing someone to do something they may not want to do is not a good idea when safety is at stake.

Having said that. upgrading signatures can be obtained from the Clerk of the Course for any driver who has done a day's marshalling instead of competing.

Some series include in their regs that drivers should spend a day marshalling, which is nice but I'm sure on this. I think drivers should WANT to contribute, not be forced to.

In Australia, to move from your Provisional licence to your Full National Licence you must spend a day on the flags, along with 5 races in a year (actually it may be 6 races in 2 years these days) 'Tis been so for around 10 years and it is just accepted. In addition time on the flag point is a favourite penalty for the stewards for any flag dirgression.
Personally I think we should have to do it once every two years or so, I have been racing since 1990 and have only done it once, even though I did not have to (I got my licence before the system started).
Naturally Flags are not the only form of marshalling, but it teaches the best lessons for drivers.

[dtype38]

Sam, can I just play Devil's Advocate for a moment and ask what it actually achieves to get drivers to marshal? What, in reality, might a driver do differently in their subsequent race meetings from what they learn in a day on the bank?

I've only done it once, and to be honest I can't say I behave any differently on the track to before. Oh, I now know for sure what line NOT to take round the bend I was at. It also confirmed for me that Marshals are a great bunch of people that need more appreciation. But then I knew that anyway, really.

Is there anything that should be in an ARDS test that includes something about Marshalling? Indeed, should Marshals conduct ARDS tests.... controvertial, but then I am being the Devil here.

Do you do anything different from before you had a go marshalling?

[chezza]

I think there should be a section in the ards test/tuition about marshals, marshalling and the job they do as it would certainly make our job easier and mean that we were more likely to get you out of a gravel trap and get you on your way than if drivers are left to their own devices.

Many a time we would have managed to get a car out of the gravel if the driver hadn't sat there spinning his wheels whilst we were on our way to them!

[Suze]

Is the latter not just a little of common sense though, perhaps?

Somewhere, there's got to be something - whether it's in the ARDs test, a compulsory day on the banks each year / every other year etc, attending a marshals training day at the beginning of the season - I think something should be incorporated.

[ss_collins]

It would go a long way to solving any marshalling shortages, also a greater understanding of how marshals work can help in number of little ways. Every now an again you will discover some obscure nugget that can help you for years. Its just beneficial to both you and the sport.

[Doc Hollywood]

I marshal more than I race. I dont think it affects the way I drive, but it does affect the way I behave if I go off. I know that if I land in the gravel I'm better off sitting there rather than making intresting patterns with the gravel using my rear wheels. It also makes me far more aware of flags and their use. I cant see it being a bad thing to be honest. But unfortunatley making it compulsory would most likely make it a chore for drivers and could lead to an unproductive/unsafe way of "forcing" drivers to learn our ways.

[Stephen Green]

I too agree that to make it compulsory would be a negative move.

The main advantage to drivers marshalling is really to see things from the 'other side of the coin' as it were. I do believe many drivers learn quite a bit from their day on the bank. It could be as has been said above, the way in which they try (or don't) to get out of a gravel trap. It could be they suddenly realise that tow brackets could be mounted somewhere else or be made stronger. There is a whole myriad of benefits to be had, but for me the most important thing is the building of relationships between the two sides of the sport.

Naturally, we (marshals) would all like to be able to drive a race car, but in reality that's never going to happen for the vast majority of us, so we settle for having a driver on post with us for the day, making him/her welcome (even buying doughnuts in my case) and to build that bond between the driver and marshals.

On a slightly different tack for a second, I would like to offer sincere thanks to all the drivers who offer to come to marshals track days to give our guys fast rides/hot laps in their cars. That too has boosted the relationship between our two hobbies and also shows how much drivers value the work of marshals.

Having just read my last paragraph again it serves to remind me that for most of us marshalling or racing is a hobby, and something for us all to enjoy.

Any driver wishing to get more information on how to spend a day marshalling can e-mail me at s.c.green@btinternet.com and I will happily arrange for a local group to look after you and get tickets arranged etc.

[Jamie G]

Originally Posted by chezza

I think there should be a section in the ards test/tuition about marshals, marshalling and the job they do as it would certainly make our job easier and mean that we were more likely to get you out of a gravel trap and get you on your way than if drivers are left to their own devices.

I think that's a great idea, new drivers need to understand the position/ functions of the marshalls and respect their presence - perhaps some formal ARDS inclusion might make marshalling more 'visible' for those who don't jump straight into racing?

IMHO Everyone should marshall in a season (Borough 19 championship makes it compulsory for eligibility), if only to get a better understanding of how thankless a job it can be and to appreciate their marshalls a little more!

[greenamex2]

Race days (including travelling) = 20
Car prep days = 30
Weekend days overtime to pay for it all = 40
Weekend days lost to unavoidable holidays etc = 8

Total weekend days available in a year = 104 (ish)

That leaves me around 6 weekend days a year to spend on something other than racing, related effort or 'enforced' holidays etc.

And you want to take away 17% of them!

[Stephen Green]

Just one Denis

[Tim Falce]

Originally Posted by dtype38

Do you do anything different from before you had a go marshalling?

Yes, I eat far more cakes now than is good for me. Those people in orange are just a bad influence.

[Suze]

Similar, Jamie, for Sevenoaks and the Speed League - it does seem to work for us.

[Austinspace75]

Originally Posted by Stephen Green

I too agree that to make it compulsory would be a negative move.

The main advantage to drivers marshalling is really to see things from the 'other side of the coin' as it were. I do believe many drivers learn quite a bit from their day on the bank. It could be as has been said above, the way in which they try (or don't) to get out of a gravel trap. It could be they suddenly realise that tow brackets could be mounted somewhere else or be made stronger. There is a whole myriad of benefits to be had, but for me the most important thing is the building of relationships between the two sides of the sport.

Naturally, we (marshals) would all like to be able to drive a race car, but in reality that's never going to happen for the vast majority of us, so we settle for having a driver on post with us for the day, making him/her welcome (even buying doughnuts in my case) and to build that bond between the driver and marshals.

On a slightly different tack for a second, I would like to offer sincere thanks to all the drivers who offer to come to marshals track days to give our guys fast rides/hot laps in their cars. That too has boosted the relationship between our two hobbies and also shows how much drivers value the work of marshals.

Having just read my last paragraph again it serves to remind me that for most of us marshalling or racing is a hobby, and something for us all to enjoy.

Any driver wishing to get more information on how to spend a day marshalling can e-mail me at s.c.green@btinternet.com and I will happily arrange for a local group to look after you and get tickets arranged etc.

I suppose that what I am trying to get at is that by introducing something like this, there wouldn't be an 'other side of the coin'. I think driving, marshalling and safety (not forgetting excitement, fun, and skill) all fall under the same banner - 'Motor Racing' and any move that brings them more together can only be a good thing. If they were seen as part and parcel to the whole scene, then drivers would be more likely to WANT to marshall, which I agree is necessary to ensure safety standards.

[Robin_D]

I marshalled with a driver once. And credit to the guy he was incredibly enthusiastic and wanting to learn. The fact that is piddled down and he got soaked to skin didnt stop him. We had to send him to get dry as he was soaked through.

I agree about encourage it because then they will learn more

[EvilPumpkin]

The last thing I want on a post is someone who doesn't want to be there and resents having to do it. Safety issues certainly - but also, who wants to spend the day with someone in that humour! So definitely not mandatory.

But always delighted to welcome anyone who wants to come out for the day to see how things work.

What I would like to see is more education for new drivers on how marshals operate and things like what to do and not to do if you have an accident - or if you see one.

A good case in point is an incident recently where two drivers pulled another one out of the car he'd just rolled (and was back the right way up). While I totally appreciate what they were trying to do (help their fellow driver), ideally he should not have left the car if he was unable to do so on his own. Now, had someone spent a bit of time with these lads and explained that as part of their licence training, they'd have known that and the reasons for it.

I'd also like a bit more driver/marshal interaction in terms of training days. Particularly in terms of how they see flags at circuits and what we can do to make them more visible.

But mandatory marshalling - definitely not. Not for anyone. If you don't want to do it, then you won't learn anything anyway.

[greenamex2]

Originally Posted by EvilPumpkin

A good case in point is an incident recently where two drivers pulled another one out of the car he'd just rolled (and was back the right way up). While I totally appreciate what they were trying to do (help their fellow driver), ideally he should not have left the car if he was unable to do so on his own. Now, had someone spent a bit of time with these lads and explained that as part of their licence training, they'd have known that and the reasons for it.

I'd also like a bit more driver/marshal interaction in terms of training days. Particularly in terms of how they see flags at circuits and what we can do to make them more visible.

I hope I never get those two 'helping' me when I crash my motorbike next!

Certainly agree with the interaction ideas. Perhaps a "what can marshalls we do to help drivers" and "what can drivers do to help marshalls" threads would be a starting point!

And then we could start something appropriate relating to the MSA!

[EvilPumpkin]

Originally Posted by Denis Bassom

I hope I never get those two 'helping' me when I crash my motorbike next!

In fairness, they were only doing what seems natural - helping a fellow driver. Nothing wrong with that - it's very commendable. A little education would just channel those good intentions in a safe way. Good idea about the thread(s). I'll start one!

[Dean Watson]

As a regular flag/observer I have had the great pleasure of the company of 2 drivers this season on post ala tango. The first was a driver who had gone to mallory for the cscc meeting on bank holiday monday and found out that the mgcc were there on the sunday so knowing that he could gain a sig as he'd only done 2 or 3 meetings he volunteered. his day was extreemly quite not even a spot of oil to dress or wing mirror to collect, but he got a lot out of the day not only a full enlightenment as to what we marshals do all day but he got to learn all the lines trhough devils elbow and the hairpin. And the second driver was a morgan driver at snetterton last saturday I beleive we had about the busiest day at russell's on sat so the poor driver got a very hands on introduction not only with incident handling but also how infringments are dealt with from the observers stand point and also how sometimes what appears as a red flag situation are not always given by race control. Both drivers commented that they had learnt quite a lot and thought that all drivers should have a go. But as I voted in the other thread covering this topic, I believe that it should be encouraged but not mandatory.