[ELMS] ELMS 2013 Discussion

[airbusA346]

Originally Posted by Victor_RO

http://www.endurance-info.com/versio...nce-17808.html

28 entries expected for Imola. Of note, the Kox Lambo and three SMP Ferraris in GTC, and a tentative LMP2 entry for HVM-Status.

Long instead of Henzler in #67 IMSA Porsche.

[TF110]

Imola would be great to see the WEC at. They should consider it in the future.

[The Badger]

Originally Posted by TF110

Imola would be great to see the WEC at. They should consider it in the future.

Yes , top track .

[Purist]

Not that Imola is that bad or anything, but I'd choose Monza or Mugello before it for a WEC round.

[TF110]

Monza is boring imo. 10 turns with super long straights. Imola is a better 'action' track.

[SpikerJack]

I actually love Imola a lot because it's my "home" track (I live 30km far from there). I always hope that WEC one day will come in Italy but the problem is that in everything here is about Ferrari in F1 (Is alonso ready? Did he sleep well tonight? Is the new 6mm flap on the front wing ready to give ferrari a 0.0001sec more on the straight and so on..) and MotoGp (Valentino). I discovered 2 years ago that ILMC/LMS was coming only because Eurosport told us about that during Le Mans a couple of weeks before the race!! No posters and newspapers never talked about that. And in fact there were very few spectators. You would never have more than 10.000 people coming to an hypothetic 6 hours of Imola or monza.

[Clay Matthews]

Sorry, you could collect 5/6000 attendance in Monza only, on other tracks you will have the desert on tribunes, Imola for Ferrari F.1 only I bet now that in two weeks we will be 20/25 around the tracks at Elms and Gt Tour races, Mugello...Dtm docet......Italy is for Ferrari Formula One only....and soccer, we're poor and sad and I would like to live abroad

[Coach Ep]

Originally Posted by TF110

Monza is boring imo. 10 turns with super long straights. Imola is a better 'action' track.

If they skip the first chicane (like Audi did in their recent test), Curva Grande will be actually be a great turn!

[Clay Matthews]

Someone of you will attend the Imola races on Sat or Sunday for GT tour ?

[Purist]

Unfortunately, the main reason you see passing at Imola is because of the multiple classes. The chicanes are awful for overtaking, and just foul up the flow of the circuit. I appreciate that the Variente Bassa can be bypassed, but they didn't restore the old curve, and instead have this angular thing surrounded by grass-crete. (They didn't need to do the paved verges/run-off anyway, as there's almost no way F1 will return to Imola now.) Also, they tightened the Variente Alta back in 2005/06, so there aren't that many quicker corners left there anyway; Piratella just past the brow of the hill, the first bend of Acque Minerale, and the bends before Rivazza are about all that's left.

Monza has the crowd, the wooded surroundings (right up to the track almost), 30+ years more history, Curva Grande, the Lesmos (still quick), the Variente Ascari (as much a fast esse as a chicane), and the Parabolica. The Sportscars could run without the chicane before Curva Grande, and the pavement is there to do the looser/faster configuration of the Variente Seconda. Those two revisions would make quite a difference at Monza.

As for Mugello, well, do I really need to give a detailed explanation? The circuit has no ultra-slow corners, and several high-speed bends. The track is fast and flowing, and has a good amount of elevation change as well. That gently meandering front "straight" is one of my favorite start/finish stretches anywhere.

I guess what Sportscar racing could use most in Italy is some stand-out Italian drivers. And actually, they already have Bruni and Fisichella driving the red cars, so that's a decent start. For a while, they had Andrea Bertolini driving the Maserati MC12 in GT1. As for the cars, in GT3 at least, they should have the Ferrari/Lamborghini/Maserati fight going for that category here soon.

[TF110]

ILMC was just there in 2011, it was a great race imo. Awesome track with awesome corners. Monza is cool but doesn't flow like Imola imo. Theres also the fact it runs anti clockwise which is unique like Interlagos.

[Purist]

I don't know that either Monza or Imola have spectacular flow anymore compared to what they once had. The main interruptions at Monza are the first two chicanes. At Imola, you have Tamburello, Villenueve, Alta, the second portion of Acque Minerale (as of 1995), and the tightened Rivazza (also as of 1995). I like the meanders in the road on the top side of Imola, basically from Tosa to Rivazza, but with two of the aforementioned interruptions in the middle. Unfortunately, the bottom half has pretty much been turned into a series of straight sections joined by a few abrupt kinks and the two chicanes. That half of the circuit has essentially lost its curvaceousness and organic feel.

I love the fast corners at Monza, but as a circuit, what sets it apart from Imola for me is the proximity of the barriers and the trees behind them. You really get a sense of how narrow it is, how fast the cars are going, and in a few places, you get that tunnel effect with the foliage stretching out over the road.

Part of my comments also relates to the suggestion of Imola as a WEC venue. On this front, Monza is one of those circuits, like Spa, Nurburgring, Le Mans, Suzuka, or Road America. I would take the WEC more seriously if Monza was included in it; I can't quite say the same with regards to Imola.

I think the racing was very good at a number of points during the 2011 visit of the ILMC to Imola. However, my criticism still stands, that you just about need the multiple classes to have much happen. Also, it seems like you have to make the move right when you encounter the traffic, if you can, because the LMPs no longer have sufficient power for that hold-up to have the same impact at the end of the straights; even with the interference, you and your competitor usually still end up topping out at very similar speeds. Another concerning aspect for me is, a lot of the most exciting moments at Imola in 2011 were also cringe-worthy. That is, I was wondering in that moment whether there was about to be a nasty wreck. I like exciting racing, but that is NOT what I want the primary source of that excitement to be coming from.

I hope the ELMS race goes well. Assuming it gets posted to YouTube, or some such site, I will certainly have a look. I will say though, I'm not sure that we'll get the same show without the LMP1s, which can still slice through traffic, whereas the LMP2s often struggle with it, especially on the straights.

Well, I hope thi clears things up.

Finally, any thoughts on my mentions of Mugello for a major Sportscar race?

[TF110]

I think Monza is nice, but not enough turns imo for an endurance race. It just seems 'easy'. Chicanes, curva grande, two right handers, variante ascari and parabolica. Ascari to me seems like the only lively part of the track. Not much elevation changes either. I like the track, but not like Imola, even with the changes.

[Purist]

By my count, without the Variente Bassa, both Monza and Imola have 13 corners. If you disregard Turns 2 and 4, and count the Carousel as one corner, Road America only has 11 turns. Riverside only had 9 officially numbered turns.

My point here is, the number of corners, on its own, is an absurd metric to use in isolation, to the exclusion of all else.

I like all manner of circuits, but I'm VERY glad that there are still some relatively simple tracks left, like Monza, the short course at Watkins Glen, Dijon Prenois, Brands Hatch GP, and Sugo.

As for being "easy", the technical challenges that show up on the track map may be reduced, but there are increased risks associated with faster closing rates on a narrow circuit. In addition, long, high-speed corners can often be taken with a variety of lines, whereas the chicanes demand precision on one line, lap-in and lap-out. Also, time-wise, even at Monza, in the time it would take you to do a lap at Spa, you'd go through a similar number of corners at Monza, it just takes you more than one lap's distance to do it.

I don't think I would consider the old Le Mans or Spa-Francorchamps layouts to be "easy", even though they only had 9-12 acknowledged corners each, and that's over a lap length of 8.4-10.7 miles.

[TF110]

They both have challenging turns. Monza has parabolica and ascari. Wouldn't call it narrow either. I don't feel Monza is a track that offers something different. That is other than super long flat out zones followed by chicanes. Its not a bad track, but imo not as good as Imola.

[isynge]

Originally Posted by Purist

I don't know that either Monza or Imola have spectacular flow anymore compared to what they once had. The main interruptions at Monza are the first two chicanes. At Imola, you have Tamburello, Villenueve, Alta, the second portion of Acque Minerale (as of 1995), and the tightened Rivazza (also as of 1995). I like the meanders in the road on the top side of Imola, basically from Tosa to Rivazza, but with two of the aforementioned interruptions in the middle. Unfortunately, the bottom half has pretty much been turned into a series of straight sections joined by a few abrupt kinks and the two chicanes. That half of the circuit has essentially lost its curvaceousness and organic feel.

I love the fast corners at Monza, but as a circuit, what sets it apart from Imola for me is the proximity of the barriers and the trees behind them. You really get a sense of how narrow it is, how fast the cars are going, and in a few places, you get that tunnel effect with the foliage stretching out over the road.

Part of my comments also relates to the suggestion of Imola as a WEC venue. On this front, Monza is one of those circuits, like Spa, Nurburgring, Le Mans, Suzuka, or Road America. I would take the WEC more seriously if Monza was included in it; I can't quite say the same with regards to Imola.

I think the racing was very good at a number of points during the 2011 visit of the ILMC to Imola. However, my criticism still stands, that you just about need the multiple classes to have much happen. Also, it seems like you have to make the move right when you encounter the traffic, if you can, because the LMPs no longer have sufficient power for that hold-up to have the same impact at the end of the straights; even with the interference, you and your competitor usually still end up topping out at very similar speeds. Another concerning aspect for me is, a lot of the most exciting moments at Imola in 2011 were also cringe-worthy. That is, I was wondering in that moment whether there was about to be a nasty wreck. I like exciting racing, but that is NOT what I want the primary source of that excitement to be coming from.

I hope the ELMS race goes well. Assuming it gets posted to YouTube, or some such site, I will certainly have a look. I will say though, I'm not sure that we'll get the same show without the LMP1s, which can still slice through traffic, whereas the LMP2s often struggle with it, especially on the straights.

Well, I hope thi clears things up.

Finally, any thoughts on my mentions of Mugello for a major Sportscar race?

I'm looking forward to it - so far the EPG seems to indicate the lion's share of it is going to be live on Motors in Europe, so I suspect footage will percolate through.

Imola doesn't have a huge sportscar pedigree, but I quite enjoyed the ILMC race there, and while post '94 it's not as spectacular as it was, it still works with trees and elevation changes. If the scheduling was better - say run it in September - I'd be there like a shot, sadly this weekend, close between Spa and Le Mans make attending a non-starter.

Mugello? Now you're talking. I've a map of the old big track tucked away on the bookshelf and I've long thought combining a visit to the new track with (hopefully) a decent rental and some big fun could be had.

[Purist]

Monza has its most interesting bits with the Lesmos (quick, and not flat-out), Ascari, and Parabolica. Imola has its tricky spots with Piratella, Acque Minerale, and that unnamed bend just before Rivazza. So, we're even there. Alos, I don't know that the corners at Imola have retained any of the old banking, since all but Tosa and Piratella have been changed. Curva Grande, the Lesmos, and Parabolica I think all still retain at least a little camber; the Lesmos definitely do.

Yes, Monza is narrow. I'm pretty sure the back side is around 30ft wide; it might be as generous as 10m, instead of ~9m. Also, Imola has enough grass verge on the side that guys would attempt three-wide in the 2011 race, even if it meant putting two into the green stuff. You don't dare do that around the back at Monza. If the road isn't going absolutely straight, the most you do is two-abreast. On top of that, I would say that the starting grid, which for F1 is supposed to be 15m wide, is only 12m wide.

I've got the 2008 LMS race from Monza running in the background right now. So, this is direct observation on my part, not anecdotes.

[TF110]

Ok, I still feel Imola is a better track for endurance racing. Nothing wrong with Monza, just don't like it as much. Leaving it at that.

[Purist]

I think we can agree that 40+ Sportscars on the grids at Monza and Spa look better than 22 on the F1 grids at those two circuits.

Isynge, yeah, as far as the circuit itself, Mugello might be my favorite among the three. I wish I could find more footage of the 1000km held there in 1985.

Part of my concern is that I would like Monza's Sportscar racing pedigree to continue, and I mean Prototypes and GTs. However, it seems like, for that to happen, either the WEC will have to go to Italy, or the ELMS has to switch venues.

Even if I liked the GT-only stuff as much as the other, that seems to be moot now. They stopped unblocking the FIA GT1 and GT3 races in the US right in the middle of last season. They also have yet to unblock last year's Blancpain race from Nurburgring, and now, I can't seem to access this year's Monza race. So, for now, it's WEC, ELMS, or bust!

[Purist]

Speaking of old Mugello, I'd like to have a look around Pescara sometime, even though it isn't as rural as it once was.

For a bit of fun, a lap around a less-modified Imola in one of the turbo F1 monsters, a Renault RE60 in 1985.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUY-BPcLFs0

[airbusA346]

Proton Competition have two cars entered for the Red Bull Ring race.

#77 - Christian Ried, Gianluca Roda, Nick Tandy
#88 - Horst Felbermayr Jr, Horst Felbermayr Sr, Klaus Bachler

[Mike E]

Autosport are reporting that Greaves Motorsport have withdrawn from this weekend's ELMS round in Austria.

[TheMightyM]

Originally Posted by Mike E

Autosport are reporting that Greaves Motorsport have withdrawn from this weekend's ELMS round in Austria.

Translation: Greaves is in the business of selling seat time to gentlemen drivers etc, and couldn’t find takers (buyers) for the race.

[TheMightyM]

Momo Megatron DF1 has also withdrawn its entry (Audi R8 LMS GTC), so now down to 27 cars for the Red Bull Ring.

[andy_b]

DKR have withdrawn
Proton are undecided if they will run the Silver LM car or the older chassis with the 'traditional' Blue under the #88 number.
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The Ten-Tenths hosted Nissan ELMS Spotter Guide for the 3hrs of Red Bull Ring is now online at www.spotterguides.com/2013-elms