GPWC serious?

[Marbot]

You may want to read this.

www.grandprix.com/ns/ns14275.html

also this www.grandprix.com/ns/ns14273.html

[Super Tourer]

More on this from:www.autosport.com

A statement issed by the manufacturers said: “The Teams and Manufacturers met today at Cliveden near London and unanimously agreed upon the establishment of a new framework for their participation in Grand Prix motor racing post 2007.”

The statement went on to claim that the teams endorsed the ‘Governing Principles for Grand Prix Motor Racing', a series of ideals to which the manufacturers have signed up – which include a more equitable distribution of money.

The teams also agreed that marketing company International Sport and Entertainment (iSe) would continue its work on the commercial aspects of the new series, and that a series of working groups would now be set up to help define technical, sporting and governance of the new series.

The manufacturers also upped the ante in their bid to win across the vote of the independent teams by confirming that they will support cheap customer engines from the start of next year if teams sign-up to the GPWC.

www.grandprix.com picked up some reaction - see some the links Martyn posted.

"They are deadly serious," said one of those present, who preferred to remain nameless. "It was incredibly thorough. They have done their research and unlike the previous presentations this was a whole new league. It will affect different people in different ways but it is really dangerous now because there is a viable alternative. There is a strong desire that there must not be two series, but we have a situation that is the biggest danger that Formula 1 has ever faced. The FISA and FOCA war was a small fish compared to this. There are five big manufacturers and they want their voice to be heard."

It looks like it's Bernie's chequebook v what has been described as the 'utopia' of the GPWC. Over to BE for the next move?

[Marbot]

I think now they would have to be taken seriously......even by K-b.

[Dutton]

I;ll still be rather surprised if the other teams don't sign up to the Concorde Agreement, but here is hoping it forces Bernie to redistribute income more reasonably.

[Sparky05]

A series run by Bernie.

A series run by the manufacturers.

I weep for the future.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by Sparky05

A series run by Bernie.

A series run by the manufacturers.

I weep for the future.

If BE can get someone decent to drive the other Ferrari,his "series" could be worth watching.

But perhaps TGF will be long gone by then.

[Kicking-back]

Eddie Jordan reckons a deal will be done with Bernie.

The GPWC is serious - but serious as a negotiating tool.

[Chucky]

Just for the record, here's the press release in full

F1 Teams and Manufacturers
Feb 17 2005
News from F1 teams and manufacturers

BMW Group
DaimlerChrysler
Honda
Renault
Toyota



16 February 2005.



Cliveden (GBR). Following a meeting in Cliveden between the five major manufacturers in Formula
One and nine teams the following understanding was reached:


1. The Teams and Manufacturers met today at Cliveden near London and unanimously agreed upon
the establishment of a new framework for their participation in Grand Prix motor racing post 2007.

2. With respect to technical rules and regulations, all parties confirm and fully endorse the "Governing
Principles for Grand Prix Motor Racing" previously developed by the major Manufacturers.

3. With respect to the commercial aspects of the sport, all parties further confirm their support that the
principles of premier Grand Prix motor racing post 2007 should be as described by International
Sport and Entertainment AG ("iSe") today, which complies with the Governing Principles. iSe will
continue its work in this respect.

4. The Manufacturers agreed that when the series is established which respects the "Governing
Principles for Grand Prix Motor Racing", then they will guarantee from 2006 the supply of
competitive engines at an affordable price to a second team which commits to such series.

5. All parties agree to continue to co-operate together and to establish technical, sporting and
governance working groups with appropriate specialists, operating within a defined timetable and
brief to document in full a new structure and regulations for the sport so as to put the Teams in a
position to participate in a timely and orderly manner in 2008.

6. All parties further agree that all Teams are invited to join on equal terms.

7. The Sauber, Red Bull and Jordan teams warmly welcome the above and agree to respond formally
with their positions on the document, following further internal consultation.

[BootsOntheSide]

Othe rthan the cynical way the GPWC statement has airbrushed Ferrair out of its list of "the five major manufacturers in Formula One", the most interesting aspect is perhaps the attempt to make offering a second engine to a private team dependent on committing to GPWC. Whether that rule is there to make them sound more serious, or as a genuine future plan to make sure F1 loses its smaller teams, is unclear, but it's a bold move either way.

[RWC]

Originally Posted by Sparky05

A series run by Bernie.

A series run by the manufacturers.

I weep for the future.

As much as i loathe bernie and defend the GPWC i must at least partly agree.
The manufactures are NOT the ones that should be running the sport.

On the plus side there are SOME points so far that very promising,such as co-operation on rules,a desire for f1 to stay as the pinacle of motor sport,plans for helping smaller teams and (AT LAST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) a rejection of ferrari subsidization

[Dutton]

Where does it say they want F1 to remain the pinnacle of motorsport, RWC? Surely if they started their own GPWC series then they would want that to be the pinnacle of motorsport?

[Gt_R]

It's unfortunate that the manufacturers choose to ruin the sports scene even further. What i find absolutely selfish is that when Formula 1 faces an engine crisis, all the "major manufacturers" refused to supply competitve engines to 2nd teams to the smaller team. BUT now that they just want to, for their own political agenda, steal small teams from Formula One, they agree to supply those engines.

If i am Bernie, i'd make huge improvements to the offer i could give to participating teams, lure VW group into F1, invite specialist engine makers to supply engines and restructure a new F1 from 2005 to end of 2007 to take on the new GPWC.

I have a feeling F1 won't lose to GPWC then.

[RWC]

Originally Posted by Dutton

Where does it say they want F1 to remain the pinnacle of motorsport, RWC? Surely if they started their own GPWC series then they would want that to be the pinnacle of motorsport?

Sorry,yes i meant the GPWC

Interestingly though they could possibly use the f1 name.
I THINK it's only 'formula one' that is copyrighted-could be wrong.
On the other hand,maybe they wouldn't want anything to do with the whole formula one /f1 name thing?

[Kicking-back]

The thing is, if the GPWC ever has a race series it will be F1 - this is about control.

We'll never see two competing series.

[Gt_R]

What is insulting is that teams like Toyota, who JUST entered the sports...manufacturers like BMW, Honda, Renault who just rejoined F1 recently because the financial and marketting prospect fit their own agenda/strategy.. have the skin to argue about unfair/poor treatment/etc and snatch F1 away.

Who's to say they won't abandon the series like they did to F1 before? The theoretical promise GPWC looks good..but in reality it is already a rotting apple.

[climb]

As long as Ferrari joined GPWC, there were good chances, but now, without Ferrari, I reckon it's a hard task.

[Gt_R]

Furthermore, people blame Bernie and FIA, but in all honesty, small teams actually get assisted by Bernie to survive. Bernie may seem like a strict father, but he actually makes it a point to assist small teams to get out of trouble, in his own ways. FIA and Bernie were the ones who brought up and fought for competitve and affordable engines to ensure the survival and competitiveness of the private teams. It is the manufacturers who come up with excuses and not want to provide the engines.

Who can assure that big manufacturers would help the smaller teams, if it brings them no benefit? The big manufacturers would simply push the duty to each other.

[RWC]

GTR, max was pushing the engine thing but i don't think bernie did a thing.

There were big teams that were interested in supplying cheap engines to smaller teams but it all got caught up in politics.
Remember that whole thing that stoddy was complaining about over a year ago?

Max wanted to force through a whole lot of changes-some great,some pitifully idiotic.It was designed to force the issue on cost cutting and it was working..for awhile.
The teams come up with engine deals and other things to help slash costs for the small teams.Remember merc stating that they would step up to the plate with a 10M/year deal on their engines?Some others did similar things.
It was all going quite well but max had a bee in his bonnet and wanted way more.big mistake.
He suddenly forced through a heap of unwanted rules which increased costs for EVERYONE.
Nothing was gained,a fair bit was lost.
A better man than max (take yer pick!lol) could have negotiated a reasonable first step.It wouldn't have been ideal but it WOULD have saved the small teams money.

Instead stupid max blows his top and introduces rules that INCREASE costs and acheive nothing else at all (one engine rule,etc)
The long and the short of it is that the teams DO try to do the right thing (yeah...slowly..........)
It's mostly max's dumb descisions that are interfering with the rule engototiation proccess

Why are you saying that it was bernie that was helping the small teams?

How do you know he's not just doing it so as not to have to fork out HUGE fines to the circuit promoters because he failed to provide the guaranteed number of cars?

Oh -your previous comment of honda,toyota,etc joining the GPWC
-doesn't it tell you how bad the situation is for them to go to such desperate measures?

[RWC]

I would like to say that,allthough i obviously don't have all the facts,the point i'm trying to get accross is that max has been nothing but trouble since he started trying to make rules and bernie is a leech on f1's money.
They both HAVE to go or the sport will go from bad to worse
..or the GPWC starts everything from scratch

[DougK]

If I were the teams I would consider signing for GPWC now.... what have they to loose?

Whether this works as another championship or a bargaining tool is the point.

With all the teams signed the GPWC could then go to Bernie with their proposals for a "joint" effort to end the dispute. Ferrari could be the only team to loose out having in effect parted company from the other teams and gone their own way.

[Stephen Green]

I think the point worth remembering is that the GPWC represent most of the current F1 teams. If you look at the huge money they spend to take part in F1 compared to the return gained by BE, you can see why they are doing what they are.

On the subject of current manufacturers supplying engines to second teams. Under the current Concorde agreement the teams don't get a fair share of the money earnt by F1. Under the GPWC they would have a much larger slice of the pot and this would make supplying a second (or more) team much more financially viable.

I happen to believe that the GPWC is a bargaining tool to make the share of F1 income more equal but, if BE doesn't play ball I don't think we should be under any illusion that they will start their own series.

[Super Tourer]

Looking at the points one at a time.

1. The Teams and Manufacturers met today at Cliveden near London and unanimously agreed upon
the establishment of a new framework for their participation in Grand Prix motor racing post 2007.

The same teams that agreed with almost all Max Mosley's proposals back at the Monaco meeting last year - only to change their mind before the door had shut on the meeting room

2. With respect to technical rules and regulations, all parties confirm and fully endorse the "Governing
Principles for Grand Prix Motor Racing" previously developed by the major Manufacturers.

Principles - not exact regulations - as we all know manufacturers welcome everything 'in principle', it's the nitty gritty that has always been the stumbling block

3. With respect to the commercial aspects of the sport, all parties further confirm their support that the
principles of premier Grand Prix motor racing post 2007 should be as described by International
Sport and Entertainment AG ("iSe") today, which complies with the Governing Principles. iSe will
continue its work in this respect.

In principle again - so the teams will let iSe continue their marketing plan - why not, as I understand it iSe are (allegedly) funding this themselves - vote for someone else to continue spending their own money on your behalf - tough call...

4. The Manufacturers agreed that when the series is established which respects the "Governing
Principles for Grand Prix Motor Racing", then they will guarantee from 2006 the supply of
competitive engines at an affordable price to a second team which commits to such series.

Something they agreed 'in principle' with the FIA about 2 years ago, only to re-consider.

5. All parties agree to continue to co-operate together and to establish technical, sporting and
governance working groups with appropriate specialists, operating within a defined timetable and
brief to document in full a new structure and regulations for the sport so as to put the Teams in a
position to participate in a timely and orderly manner in 2008.

Something the FIA have been asking the teams to do for years - agree on something to improve the spectacle of F1 whilst reducing the costs - thats what the TWG is supposed to be for surely?

6. All parties further agree that all Teams are invited to join on equal terms.

This seems very fair - but what does it mean, prize funded divided equally?


7. The Sauber, Red Bull and Jordan teams warmly welcome the above and agree to respond formally
with their positions on the document, following further internal consultation.

We'll think about it and get back to you after BE has upped his offer...

To me, it is flim flam and generalities - where does the moeny come from, what actual TV deals are in place, which circuits and promoters have been contracted to hold races, what happens if another 1 or 2 manufacturers pull our of F1 before the GPWC 'starts'.

These are the real questions that need real answers.

It's a great bargaining tool, but will it ever appear as a 'rival' series - I don't think so.

[Kicking-back]

GPWC is the manufacturers.

Not a single "team" is signed up to race in a GPWC series.

All that's happened is that the teams have said "we kind alike what you've got to say" - lets see if Bernie will concede some of these things.

[Super Tourer]

To add to BE's musings over the recent GPWC meeting, it seems that his ownership of the F1 brand may not be as tight as had been thought, or suggested.

From www.autosport.com

Dr Jeremy Philpott, spokesman for the Patent Office, noted that Formula 1 refers to "a type of motor sport, rather than applying to goods or services coming from a specific individual or legal entity." With the term also used for triathlon and power boat events he noted that "the marks are in common parlance, and insufficiently associated with a single provider of goods and services, [which] may act as a problem for registration."

Trademark records have revealed that Formula One Licensing (FOL), SLEC's intellectual property division, has no pan-European registrations for the terms ‘Formula One', ‘F1' or ‘Formula 1' in the category covering sporting and cultural events, and Philpott suggested that either Ecclestone or the GPWC would be entitled to use the terms in any future series featuring cars in this category.

The commercial rights that SLEC controls are specific to ‘The FIA Formula One World Championship' – the company bought these rights for 100 years in 2000 from the Federation Internationale de l'Automobile (FIA) for $360m.

Presumably then, the GPWC could brand a series as 'Formula One Grand Prix' - for example.

FOL has also applied for the patent of 'Grand Prix', this is a complicated patent as the term is widely used in other sports as various as snooker and horse racing. The comment that I have seen is that there is much legal debate on what limitations of 'Grand Prix' could stand as patents, and how much of what FOL has applied for is legally enforcable.

[Kicking-back]

The patent story in the Daily Telegraph was highly speculative, to say the least.