2010 Intercontinental Le Mans Cup Round 3 - Zhuhai , 6-7 November

[chernaudi]

Originally Posted by Acid09

I expected better from Autosport, nothing about this win was "controversial".

The final laps showed that Kristensen could not match Sarrazins speed...that's a fact.

A shame to see that Audi and particular McNish seem to be sour losers and an even bigger shame to see the media picking up on it.

And it's a shame to see Peugeot have to resort to such tactics to ensure a win! Audi obvioulsy had the better pit tactics--and better brakes!--than the Pugs. Peugeot shot themselves in the foot at Le Mans, and almost did the same here with Montangy's off and Bordais' avoidable contact with the Porsche, not to mention that the Pug's have always been questionable as far as brakes in circumstances similar to this.

It's obvious that Bordais was under team orders to hold up the #7 Audi as long as he could--Bordais slowed for several laps before, and was repeatedly showed the move over flag.

All the reports I've read--Speed TV and Planet Le Mans--point out that Seb's and Peugeot's move was controversial.

I can understand Seb's motives if it was a race for position, but being 3-4 laps down, the reeks of team orders! Even the patrioticly French ACO though it was blantant blocking, by showing Seb the blue "move over" flag!

I feel that Zhuhai--where mechanical grip and straightline speed matters, both Peugeot fortes--shows that the 908 is definintly getting on its years, and if Audi had the R15 sorted from the begining, Peugeot could've been in serious trouble this year. They screwed themselves at Le Mans by pushing the engine envelope too far and not taking into account the closeness of pace between them and Audi. And they nearly screwed themselves with cooked brakes and driver mistakes.

The 908--let alone their drivers and questionable tactics, with their attitude with the original R15, which was never a threat at Le Mans, and with their team orders here--aren't exactly a god's gift to sportscar racing. The fact that they almost lost to Audi in a fair fight shows that to me.

Granted, I didn't see the race--the ACO doesn't care about America, it seems--but I've read the reports at Speed and PLM, and, even with the writers Dygas and Ten Caat having by trade having to make and attempt at being unbiased, called out Peugeot on Seb's blocking and calling it controversial, and most comments on the subject basically are calling it a cheap shot. It's not just Autosport--which doesn't really care about anything aside from F1 anyways--questioning Peugeot's motives and how much fair play was involved.

[Martin90]

I don't understand why McNish's words are such a big deal. He's not saying they would have won if things would have been different, he's just saying he's not amused by Peugeot's tactics.

I am disappointed that a team such as Peugeot falls back on tactics like this for no particular reason, because no-one is ever going to believe they had serious problems which were all suddenly gone when Kristensen got past.

[Dani Filth]

there was no blocking from Bourdais .. not once did TK tried to pass him and was blocked by Bourdais .. once the blue flags got shown he let him pass

[vyselegend]

Originally Posted by Acid09

I expected better from Autosport, nothing about this win was "controversial".

The final laps showed that Kristensen could not match Sarrazins speed...that's a fact.

A shame to see that Audi and particular McNish seem to be sour losers and an even bigger shame to see the media picking up on it.

Sorry, but I strongly disagrees whith your point of view.

First, Audi crews and drivers have nearly always been fair and acted as sportsmen, I do not believe they deserves to be called "sour losers"!

Secondly, there were controversial elements in Peugeot win.
Montagny obviously stole the start to begin with. Then in the Kristensen/Bourdais affair of the last laps, although I concede there's no proof that Tom could be faster, from what I've seen on TV there were blue flags shown to Bourdais for several laps in a row. Weather they were justified or not, Bourdais had to respect the flags, and should have done so right away, and not six laps later IMO.
Still, I don't think #7 would necessarly have won without the pretended "blocking", but for sure it would have been a bit closer, so also more exiting for us.

I believe from the moment they understood they couldn't double stint the tyres, Audi switched to softer compounds, and Allan went for all out performance. That was a very impressive job from him, so typical Mc Nish! It really made for a great show, and eventually could even have triggered a win.

[Acid09]

The media picks up on it because it's fun to rip on Peugeot, they have absolutely no lobby in the sports car world while everyone is sucking up to Audi.

A good example is Hindy, you can feel it's killing him to give Peugeot credit for anything and he's the first to mock them if something goes wrong. I don't know if it's the fact that Audi has been in sportscars for over ten years now, if they´re better at keeping media people happy or whatever but there is certainly a pro-Audi bias in the media, including RLM, SPEED, Eurosport and some big websites.

All these articles on today's race are nonsense in that regard, once Kristensen got by he didn't manage to bring down the gap to Sarrazin so Bourdais played absolutely no role in the outcome of the race.

It seems to me that Audi gets more and more bitter with every defeat, they used to be classy losers but it looks like the ongoing 2nd place finishes are wearing on them. *****ing about the safety car coming out and petty stuff like that... that's just sad.

Face it, the only thing that somewhat saved Audi's year was that Peugeot was too stupid to win Le Mans. Audi didn't win Le Mans, Peugeot lost it. Without the stupid advice from Megachrome on the titanium rods, Peugeot would have killed Audi at Le Mans and you Audi fans know it..

But I´m sure chernaudi will provide a lot of "what if's" now, somehow spinning this year into Peugeot lucking out even though they had Audi covered at pretty much every race.

[Martin90]

If doesn't count in sports so whatever is related to the word 'if' can be scrapped right away.

Also, the fact that Kristensen didn't get closer to Sarrazin in the end does not necessarily mean that Bourdais didn't slow him down. Sarrazin was on fresh tires as well, it was the part prior to the pit stops that mattered in this situation.

[MihokS5]

Once again Acid09 is being a hater.

I have no problem admitting that the 908 is a fast car and has been a success. But the attitude of the Pug fans comes off as if the 908 is unstoppable and we have seen that that is not the case.

I personally think that Audi deserves a lot of credit for optimizing the R15 Plus to the point that it could run with the 908 which everyone knows is a more powerful car. On top of that Audis pit stops are better and so is their overall reliability.

Let's hope that Audi gets their revenge with the R18 program, but I believe that the R18 will also have a smaller engine than the "908 plus".

...I say 908 plus because it looks like Peugeot copied some of the R15 Plus design elements around the side pod area and wing

[Dani Filth]

ok .. I understand.. Audi has a better car, better drivers, better pit stops, better team and yet they still get beaten from time to time ..

[MihokS5]

Originally Posted by Acid09

The media picks up on it because it's fun to rip on Peugeot, they have absolutely no lobby in the sports car world while everyone is sucking up to Audi.

A good example is Hindy, you can feel it's killing him to give Peugeot credit for anything and he's the first to mock them if something goes wrong. I don't know if it's the fact that Audi has been in sportscars for over ten years now, if they´re better at keeping media people happy or whatever but there is certainly a pro-Audi bias in the media, including RLM, SPEED, Eurosport and some big websites.

All these articles on today's race are nonsense in that regard, once Kristensen got by he didn't manage to bring down the gap to Sarrazin so Bourdais played absolutely no role in the outcome of the race.

It seems to me that Audi gets more and more bitter with every defeat, they
used to be classy losers but it looks like the ongoing 2nd place finishes are wearing on them. *****ing about the safety car coming out and petty stuff like that... that's just sad.

Face it, the only thing that somewhat saved Audi's year was that Peugeot was
too stupid to win Le Mans. Audi didn't win Le Mans, Peugeot lost it. Without the stupid advice from Megachrome on the titanium rods, Peugeot would have
killed Audi at Le Mans and you Audi fans know it..



But I´m sure chernaudi will provide a lot of "what if's" now, somehow spinning this year into Peugeot lucking out even though they had Audi covered at pretty much every race.

Yep Peugeot lost LM because they were worried about the pace of the R15 and pushed their engines to the limit.

Yep Audi WON LM because all 3 of their cars ran flawlessly and it's about making it the full 24 hours.

The 908 is fast but I wasn't blown away like I thought I would be a PLM seeing it in person. It ran like it was tuned by a super tuner chip shop and the brakes seemed to be always glowing red....

[Acid09]

Originally Posted by MihokS5

Yep Peugeot lost LM because they were worried about the pace of the R15 and pushed their engines to the limit.

Exactly like I said, it was a stupid move by Peugeot. There clearly wasn't anything to worry about as the R15 never managed to beat the Peugeot on speed.

I know you like to stick to that myth that the R15 is as fast as the 908 but Audi keeps on losing somehow, wake up. The 908 set the quickest time at Silverstone, it set the quickest time at the PLM and it set the quickest time today!

That's a fact you can't spin away...

[Dani Filth]

I forgot .. the R15+ also has the better fuel mileage ..
oh wait ......

[Aysedasi]

Erm, when we've finished trading insults from either side, this is a race thread.......

[vyselegend]

One thought on the race. (somehow trying to leave the Peugeot/Audi fans debate)

Overall I find that the organisers did well for a first time at Zuhai. But maybe they were a bit laxist on safety, if I can make an euphemism...

I didn't even spot a single yellow flag when the #91 Aston was lying in the grass 20m from the braking zone, nor there were any for the Felbermayer's off or for the Ferrari, the Peugeot, the Pescarollo ...
Actually the only time I saw a yellow flag was for the safety car period in the last part of the race.

Also, my wife (she's chinese) told me that anoying "mist" we saw during the race was indeed pure pollution. According to her it was a clear and sunny day for the region, and on a bad day you don't see further than 100m away!

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by Acid09

The media picks up on it because it's fun to rip on Peugeot, they have absolutely no lobby in the sports car world while everyone is sucking up to Audi.

... says the most anti-Audi person of the forum.

Maybe you should check the French press. What did lequipe.fr write?

Cette victoire est cependant sujette Ã* controverse, car la R15 de de Kristensen a été ralentie par la 908 de Bourdais alors que Sarrazin effectuait son dernier arrêt aux stands. Il est difficile de dire si la R15 aurait pu doubler la 908 si elle n'avait pas été ralentie, mais McNish n'a pas vraiment apprécié la manoeuvre : «C'est une pillule amère Ã* avaler pour conclure une belle saison de compétition.»

Or autohebdo.fr?

Lors de cet arrêt, l'équipe Audi a reproché Ã* Peugeot d'avoir demandé Ã* Bourdais, situé devant Kristensen, de ralentir le Danois afin de garantir la première place de la Peugeot n°2.

Laurent Mercier also observed in his report that Bourdais ignored blue flags.

A dix tours de la fin, on pouvait s'attendre Ã* une belle passe d'armes pour la victoire, mais avec trois tours de retard, Bourdais ne lâchait rien sur le pilote Audi, malgré les drapeaux bleus. Ce n'est que cinq tours plus tard que le pilote Audi trouvait l'ouverture mais la messe était dite, avec la Peugeot de tête qui comptait une avance supérieure Ã* trois secondes.

source: http://www.endurance-info.com/versio...ance-5635.html

[cmk]

Regardless of 'whose team' was in what position - and as always I fail to understand how people get so wrapped up in being fans of a team or brand that they lose objectivity - there is an issue with how blue flags work and what penalties are in place if they are not respected, particularly in cases where there is a blatant benefit to a teammate from not obeying the flag. Whatever the possible result was, whether it was going to be an Audi or Peugeot victory, there is a problem when disobeying blue flags goes unpunished.

Ultimately the fans are the losers across the board, because any hope of a last-lap dice for the lead was replaced with a closing laps dice to lap a car which was not in contention. That, I think, casts a pall over this race, and it has nothing to do with whose side you're on.

[Martin90]

Good point regarding the flags CMK, I always feel they're pretty loose on the rules in sportscar racing anyway. One of the things I like about F1 is that incidents are being investigated as soon as a tiny bit happens and ignoring any sort of flag will lead to some sort of punishment. Watching sportscar racing I'm sometimes amazed by the (lack of) decisions from race control.

[chernaudi]

And that's disapointing, too. I'm not saying that TK could've blown by Stephane, as they were running competitive times. However, if Tom wasn't held up, he could've put the Pug under pressure, and forced him to use the brakes up, which on the 908s seemed to be a problem, and a fairly presistant one:

PLM '08, McNish ran down and blew by Klien. People reported that the brakes were cherry red all the way down the back straight.

Sebring '09, Montangy had two off course excursions late, and was noticeably much slower than McNish. Peugeot said it was tire compound choice. I don't believe that Peugeot would make that same mistake twice. And the brakes a-glowed like Christmas tree lights.

Le Mans '09, all the Pugs slowed late, and there was radio chatter about brake and clutch issues on the winning #9 and the others had concerns over brakes.

Zhuhai '10, Pugs had concerns over brakes, backed up by Stephane's comments about trying to save brakes in his post-race comments.

After four years, you'd think that Peugeot would've solved their brake problems--you have all that power, you got to reign it in when needed.

On the converse, why did Audi lose out on fuel mileage at Zhuhai and Silverstone, but got better fuel mileage than the 908s at PLM? The whole deal with Tom and Seb could've been avoided if the #7 Audi could've spared an extra second or two on fuel.

This can start a bleepin' match from here to no end, but the fact is that Audi was competitive, and Peugeot's win, which I think that they may've gotten on their own merit, will still be overshadowed by the questions over the start and team orders using Seb as a pick over TK. Just as how team orders shafted the #07 Pug out of possible race win at PLM.

[JAG]

I don't know if it's the fact that Audi has been in sportscars for over ten years now, if they´re better at keeping media people happy or whatever but there is certainly a pro-Audi bias in the media, including RLM, SPEED, Eurosport and some big websites.

110% correct.

Nothing wrong with it BTW, we all have our favourites.

It's good sportscar racing can fuel these debates, factories squaring upto each other on a regular basis is what this sport needs.

[cmk]

I think if the media has a strong pro-Audi or anti-Peugeot bias, and I'm not really of the opinion that they do, I think it would stem from the secrecy and media-unfriendliness of Peugeot's attitude in the first year or two of the 908 program. I don't think ALMS media types in particular enjoyed being shut out by one of their key storylines.

[Andrei]

I know that I am an audi employee and my words will always tend to have some subjective note, but is is really intresting for everybody to have a look at the lap times of the race and see that beginning with lap 209 PUG No 1 was off the pace around 2 s/lap.
What annys me is that the lap times of no. 1 are not listed after the pit visit of no. 2.

An other topic - I just hope that ACO will find some way to broadcast the races better than with Eurosport - I can not understand how they have such a goog broadcast over LeMans and here it really sucks.

[Dani Filth]

the times would be more or less the same as the TKs

[porsche91722]

I'll say it up front. I'm an Audi fan. I simply like what they do and how they do it, but if the boot was on the other foot today, with Audi taking the win at Zhuhai under similar circumstances, we (Audi fans) would be cheering. The fact that I think that Peugeot are a bunch of CHEATING, BLOCKING BARSTEWARDS does not make me bitter and twisted OK.

[Acid09]

Originally Posted by cmk

I think if the media has a strong pro-Audi or anti-Peugeot bias, and I'm not really of the opinion that they do, I think it would stem from the secrecy and media-unfriendliness of Peugeot's attitude in the first year or two of the 908 program. I don't think ALMS media types in particular enjoyed being shut out by one of their key storylines.

Another thing, especially with the ALMS, is that many Americans seem to have contempt for French people in general... I don't think that helped warming people up to Peugeot either.

That being said, you have to give Peugeot credit for having learned their lesson in dealing with the fans and the media, the team is as open as any other top sports car outfit now. They just needed to find their balance in that regard..

[Andrei]

Originally Posted by Dani Filth

the times would be more or less the same as the TKs

You're right, but before TK's pit stop, he was driving 1.24's.

But that's racing, and everybody figts for the win. And, as Audi have just improoved over the year, without beeing the real championship pretender, it does just hurt that they could not proove their evolution with this win.

[chernaudi]

A lot of the Peugeot bias comes on the American end because Peugeot wasn't very fan friendly their first couple of visits to North America. Some also may be fans who have contempt for the fact that Peugeot doesn't even sell cars here and that they wish that they could.

It also seems that the British have an issue with Peugeot's image in the UK for whatever reason, as several motoring journalist have ripped on Peugeot for making "rubbish" (read "average") cars. Jeremy Clarkson in particular has been hard on French makes, Peugeot in particular.

And there are some people, quite a few whom may be French, who have it in for Peugeot for, in their minds, making Citroen Peugeot's sickly sister and killing off all the character from Citroen's own cars after buying Citroen from Michelin in '75, much as Rolls-Royce did to Bentley.

Whatever it is, a lot of the flak that Peugeot has taken is perhaps undeserved, but they must've PO'd quite a few people with what seems to be a cocky, arrogant attitude. By the way, I'm a fan of Twilight Saga actress Kristen Stewart, and I know that feeling, especially when in my mind, at least, there's a bias against her in the media because she's dating Rob Pattinson, or because she's not from the normal Disney teen actress mold. At least more people like her than dislike her.

Perhaps Peugeot's image discussion would be better placed elsewhere. But it's telling that several French motorsports sites have called the Peugeot move controversial at best, and downright unsportsmanlike at worst.