Barc Formula Renault 2006

[Bob Pearson]

It was very windy, any times would have been pretty meaningless. It was certainly a long drag up the start and finish into the wind, in fact on one occasion in the afternoon, when I guess the wind blew even more than normal I was still in 4th when I got to Riches. In short, you didn't miss much. The amusing thing was seeing how little, compared with us the wind on the start and finish affected the formula fords which were out with us. It was a bit embarassing at times.
The Renault sport "heavy gang" were going through the twin cams telling anyone with repairs in their nose cones that they had to part with a grand to R Sport for a new one. As you can imagine, that didn't go down too well.
Oh yes, just for good measure, in the afternoon at times there was a sand storm blowing across the track between Riches and Sears.
Ian was 2 seconds off his lap record, given the circumstances I thought that was a pretty good effort. I didn't even bother to turn the lap timer on till the last session, and that was promptly followed by Andy Webb, ( now minus an engine) oiling half the circuit, so that was the end of that!

[andoiwebb]

sorry, there was no warning! it's my anti-overtake device - was.

[Bob Pearson]

It's just bad luck, no need for apology, lets hope you can make Silverstone.

[REALIST]

Originally Posted by Bob Pearson

It was very windy, any times would have been pretty meaningless. It was certainly a long drag up the start and finish into the wind, in fact on one occasion in the afternoon, when I guess the wind blew even more than normal I was still in 4th when I got to Riches. In short, you didn't miss much. The amusing thing was seeing how little, compared with us the wind on the start and finish affected the formula fords which were out with us. It was a bit embarassing at times.
The Renault sport "heavy gang" were going through the twin cams telling anyone with repairs in their nose cones that they had to part with a grand to R Sport for a new one. As you can imagine, that didn't go down too well.
Oh yes, just for good measure, in the afternoon at times there was a sand storm blowing across the track between Riches and Sears.
Ian was 2 seconds off his lap record, given the circumstances I thought that was a pretty good effort. I didn't even bother to turn the lap timer on till the last session, and that was promptly followed by Andy Webb, ( now minus an engine) oiling half the circuit, so that was the end of that!

What was all that about with the noses? we were in the middle of changing a hose when we were visited and I didn't pay much attention. Anyway our nose is undamaged.

I can understand the point of not allowing a HEAVILY damaged and repaired nose to be used but who decides and how much repair is allowed.

Finally, if this is the rule for the 2000s, why not the older cars?

[dasc04]

Anyone know where we can see pics from yesterday? I noticed there was a guy taking pictures out there. Think it was the smae photographer who did the pics at last years free test.

[Bob Pearson]

As far as I can tell, it seems that any chassis that has been repaired by someone other than one of the two approved repairers is not allowed to race, and any nose that has been repaired, no matter how small the repair is, cannot be raced. This to me is garbage and just providing jobs for the boys. As you know we are contemplating joining the twin cam part of the field, but I do find all these rules, the single source parts supply, not allowed to look in engines, g/boxes or diffs and this nose business far too oppresive for my liking.
It seems to me that someone has lost sight of the fact that this is club racing. As usual it easy for all involved to hide behind rules, but do they do this in club F3? I doubt it very much as it isn't an MSA thing, just FR driven.
If they applied the rule to the club class cars I doubt that there would be one left on the grid.

[REALIST]

Originally Posted by Bob Pearson

As far as I can tell, it seems that any chassis that has been repaired by someone other than one of the two approved repairers is not allowed to race, and any nose that has been repaired, no matter how small the repair is, cannot be raced. This to me is garbage and just providing jobs for the boys. As you know we are contemplating joining the twin cam part of the field, but I do find all these rules, the single source parts supply, not allowed to look in engines, g/boxes or diffs and this nose business far too oppresive for my liking.
It seems to me that someone has lost sight of the fact that this is club racing. As usual it easy for all involved to hide behind rules, but do they do this in club F3? I doubt it very much as it isn't an MSA thing, just FR driven.
If they applied the rule to the club class cars I doubt that there would be one left on the grid.

I agree with most of that. I don't see how you justify doing it for the later cars but not the earlier ones. Isn't the safety of the pre 2000 drivers as important? Or do they figure the owners of 2000 cars have more money?

[Bob Pearson]

I think you hit the nail on the head with the last line Peter. We are not at all sure we want to be involved now. We can play about with the older cars without drawing any attention to ourselves and continue to go racing on the cheap.

[Collaborator]

Errr, actually the nose cone is part of the FR2000 car's structure and it is homologated and crash tested with it in place, that's why they always black flag people who lose one in racing. Wasn't it the BARC's scrutineer who told the offenders to change the repaired ones? For my money its just a safety issue and I wouldn't want to crash a damaged or weakened car - I'd rather keep my legs!

[Bob Pearson]

It doesn't quite stack up does it? Can the carbon chassis be so weak that it needs the crash box to protest the driver and the steel chassis be so strong that it doesn't need a crash box? That doesn't make sense to me, or if it is the case why are the modern cars made with a carbon chassis if it is inherently weaker than the steel space frames. Actually the scrutineers are MSA appointed, not club representatives. I noticed you referred to cars which have lost one during a race, as the things seem to be able to get off so easily one questions there effectiveness as a crash structure in any circumstances other that directly head on.
All this is reasonably off the point, the repair in question was tiny, some sort of judgement based on common sense and experience would be better. Unfortunately the class does remain the domain of the wealthy, the cost of a new nose to us if we did join in would represent 25% of our annual budget!!
I must speak to someone in F3 and see if this business applies there.

[REALIST]

I believe the nose on the older car is also a crash structure and is also made of CF, indeed it is very similar in construction from what I have seen.

I would agree that very serious damage should entail a replacement, but minor scrapes etc, maybe not. Are there any instances of a repaired nose failing and resulting in a more serious incident?

[Bob Pearson]

I believe the key to what is officially part of the crash structure is what was on it when it was tested for FIA approval. The question really is did they test the carbon chassis with it on because that is the only way it would pass, or could it have passed without it? I can't imagine anyone ever telling us that! I have never heard of instances of repaired noses resulting in injury, we usually find that they fall off at the first sign of violence anyway. An interesting question is, what would happen if the owner of an FR2000 looked at his nose and decided it wasn't strong enough for his liking and arranged for a whole extra layer to be added inside, or maybe just reinforced the mountings. Would he be banned from using it even though he had improved it's strength and so added to the safety?
I have remembered since my last post that the issue of out of date fuel tanks blew up with the older cars around 2001. When it was found that no new ones were available it was dropped and the justification was that the tank approval was an FIA approval and as club racing is MSA then there wasn't a need to comply. ( memory a bit hazy on this, but it was something like that)

[JNWRF01]

Guys - isn;t this the same as in Zetec FF - ie its not really to protect you, more to protect the other cars you may hit. There were people damaging their VD zetec noses (the RF99+ cars) and then filling them with two part foam. Then if/when they T-boned another car, it caused huge damage to whatever they hit..(if I remember right a medina car getting trashed in a winter series race?). Pete I am sure you'll remember more about this than me...

So I can understand them banning certain types of repairs - but all repairs is a touch of over the top no?

[REALIST]

Originally Posted by JNWRF01

Guys - isn;t this the same as in Zetec FF - ie its not really to protect you, more to protect the other cars you may hit. There were people damaging their VD zetec noses (the RF99+ cars) and then filling them with two part foam. Then if/when they T-boned another car, it caused huge damage to whatever they hit..(if I remember right a medina car getting trashed in a winter series race?). Pete I am sure you'll remember more about this than me...

So I can understand them banning certain types of repairs - but all repairs is a touch of over the top no?

Me? Why should I, I'm not that old! Maybe I am actually, because I don't remember any of this.

What were we saying?

[jlittlejohn]

Originally Posted by Collaborator

Errr, actually the nose cone is part of the FR2000 car's structure and it is homologated and crash tested with it in place, that's why they always black flag people who lose one in racing. Wasn't it the BARC's scrutineer who told the offenders to change the repaired ones? For my money its just a safety issue and I wouldn't want to crash a damaged or weakened car - I'd rather keep my legs!

Agreed Collaborator, and JNWRF01 I agree with you to since nose cones in UK FF were also checked last year and not allowed if cracked. This was even the same for the BRDC FF championship last year so there must be a legit reason for this rule to be implemented.

[REALIST]

Originally Posted by jlittlejohn

Agreed Collaborator, and JNWRF01 I agree with you to since nose cones in UK FF were also checked last year and not allowed if cracked. This was even the same for the BRDC FF championship last year so there must be a legit reason for this rule to be implemented.

Then why don't they do the same with the pre 2000 cars, which have the same type of nose, and are racing with the 2000s?

[Bob Pearson]

The reason the noses on the older cars can be repaired is that there are no new ones being made by Tatuus. This also applies to the fuel tanks, which, in the case of the Fr2000's are replaced after, I think 5 years. This was also a target of inspection on Tuesday. I guess if anyone made new noses for the early cars they would not neccessarily be the equal of the original.
But I still think none of this actually applies. It seems that the Fr2000 chassis/nose was FIA crash tested as an assembly, but the earlier cars were not. Now, it seems also obvious that F3's would be FIA tested and so how are they controlled in terms of repairs to chassis and noses when they are run in club races. I understand they are not controlled, and with a number of different manufacturers and ages of cars it would be out of the question to expect all manufacturers to hold stocks of spares for all ages.
I am sure that, like the older cars in FR, when the car is changed for UK FR then Tatuus will stop making parts for the Fr2000's and the rules will have to be relaxed as they were for the older cars when the fuel tank saga blew up some years ago.
In short, I think the complication is in trying to apply FIA type rules to club racing. This has come about because the FR UK rules have been implemented word for word in BARC Renault, whereas when the older cars were first allowed into BARC Renault the rules were adjusted to make them more user friendly for the club racer. So far Renault UK have resisted attempts to convince them that a rule revision is appropriate for the Fr2000 cars in BARC Renault.
I never knew they were turning their noses into battering rams in FF, that is a dirty trick. Fortunately that problem couldn't arise in FR as anyone who used his nose to nudge the back of a car would damage his wings and so lose more than he gained.

[REALIST]

Got the details for Silverstone today.. Only 7 entries? What happened to everyone????

[Bob Pearson]

There are more than that. We entered, received all the paperwork, but were not included on the list. No doubt this applies to more than just us!!

[widerviewphoto]

Originally Posted by Bob Pearson

There are more than that. We entered, received all the paperwork, but were not included on the list. No doubt this applies to more than just us!!

Speaking to Simon North at Brands Hatch at the weekend about the numbers and he is expecting around 20 drivers at the first BARC meeting at Silverstone.

It will be intersting to see how many actualy make the grid.

[Bob Pearson]

Yes, I'm expecting just over 20.
Are you suggesting that a number of us are likely to crash prior to reaching the grid, or was that an unfortunate choice of terminology?
I have the feeling that we are getting off to a slightly limp start this year, with Silverstone being a bit of a naff circuit and Snett being a single round. The season starts at Croft for me with a Thursday lunch time to Sunday night long weekend away. Don't feel like a racing driver unless I have gone far enough and long enough to sever the ties with work and home.

[widerviewphoto]

No I don't want anyone to crash, just wondered how many will be ready for race 1. I agree with you about Silverstone and don't much enjoy photographing their due to the long distance from track. Snet is OK but yes I do enjoy the two day meetings, even if Croft is 5 hours away.

[Bob Pearson]

Testing at Silverstone on the 21st April is full with 5 reserves.

[jlittlejohn]

Anyone testing tomorrow at silverstone (14th)?

[Bob Pearson]

Wouldn't seem much point if you thought you would test on the 21st. but if you are one of the reserves or not even on that list it may be worth seeing if there are any places tomorrow. I guess we just wont bother. Perhaps we will test at Snett.