'09 LMS Round 3 • Algarve - Portimão, Portugal

[Dario911]

Originally Posted by NightStalk3r

And Dario shut up now, your even starting to **** me off.

Sorry, but I don't understand what you would intend...

[undoz]

It was an entertaining race. Pesca was pushing hard during the night, I was pleased to see them take the win.
Also there were some pretty nice visuals in the dark.

[chernaudi]

And maybe this shows that the Audi R10-with factory drivers and a good team-has some life left in it-Albers had one of the fastest race laps for a while, didn't he. But with gentleman drivers and Kolles, not a chance. But it also has to be remembered that the Pescarolo chassis design is heavily based of the Courage C60-a ten year old design. Also, I wonder how a fully factory developled car like the Audi R15 or even the Acura ARX-02 would've done, since Algarve seems to favor the high downforce Acura and especially the high downforce/high power R15.

[dxk1]

Originally Posted by Dario911

It's true! But you can't make on the same car (one of the main car) a gentleman and a top driver, if you are fighting for the final win in the championship. Look at Ferrari: Bell/Bruni, Garcia/Melo/Mansell... all top drivers (Mansell is a slow top drive, but a professionist).
There's a great difference, and Le Mans would have been teached this to the Porsche teams!

Mansell is slower than Narac, so in my book he doesn't really qualify as a pro. If that car had just Garcia/Melo, they would have won the race by more than the 5 seconds for Bell Bruni as they led Bell/Bruni at the time of the pit stop when Garcia was replaced by Mansell. I agree with you, the Porsche is slightly quicker than the Ferrari, but both Melo and Garcia were running laps in the same range as Pilet except for the one lap where Pilet got it into the 1:45s. All in all and entertaining GT2 race.

DK

[NightStalk3r]

Originally Posted by dxk1

except for the one lap where Pilet got it into the 1:45s. All in all and entertaining GT2 race.

Pillet did quite a few 1:45's

[dj choc ice]

great race by all, a super race in all the classes bar GT1, very well done to Henri's boy's, first race win since Jarama in 2006 i believe?
good to see Quifel win as well, its been a while since they have won in LMP2 and a great battle in GT2 as well, Pilet arguably the drive of the race, him or JCB showing how to drive a prototype very quickly in the dark, a lesson in speed some would say.

[Dario911]

Originally Posted by dxk1

Mansell is slower than Narac, so in my book he doesn't really qualify as a pro. If that car had just Garcia/Melo, they would have won the race by more than the 5 seconds for Bell Bruni as they led Bell/Bruni at the time of the pit stop when Garcia was replaced by Mansell. I agree with you, the Porsche is slightly quicker than the Ferrari, but both Melo and Garcia were running laps in the same range as Pilet except for the one lap where Pilet got it into the 1:45s. All in all and entertaining GT2 race.

DK

If a puncture would have not stopped IMSA Porsche, Pilet and Narac would have won the race. They were consistently first and faster than the opponents. But in a race, a puncture or a crash are just beside the corner...
Anyway, Pilet was almost 1,5"-2" faster than his teammate Narac, and did a great job in the last part of the race, recovering a lot of seconds over JWM Ferrari.
Anyway, I'm positive for the rest of the races: Porsche is faster than Ferrari, bad luck will over and Lieb/Lietz will recover the gap to gain the first place, again.
They are extremely fast, and Felbermayr is a wonder team. I'm sure they will gain the title, at the end of the season!

[NightStalk3r]

Originally Posted by Dario911

Anyway, Pilet was almost 1,5"-2" faster than his teammate Narac

You say that like its a bad thing, but then when you take into consideration that Pillet was also almost 1.5 to 2 seconds faster than the likes of Bell, Bruni and Garcia, it shows that Narac is not slow.

Quit your goddamn nonsense.

[MJ_N_09]

Well I'm not surprised at what the thread now is. After all, certain users have had to come here since the other thread got rightfully deleted.


Will this get as bad as the US Democratic vs. Republican wars?

[old man]

To win championships you need a top all round team including professional drivers, top engineers, management and crew and it was never clearer than whem Modena put Mansell in, he is not a pro, who would pay him to race, he was the weak link. IMO the definition of any professional is one who gets paid to do something and the better you are, the more you get paid. Had they not had to use him Garcia/Melo could have won.

Probably you would find the teams felt the circuit suited the Porsche best because of its better traction and if the 77 and 88 had not influenced things right at the beginning it would have been a 4 way fight but that is what endurance racing is all about, you don't win them on the first lap, it is all about consistency and teamwork.

I was very sorry for the Drayson team

Strange thing was, LMS put out a news email at 01.30 and it said Modena was winner in GT2, correct news put out at 04.00

[old man]

See Paul Truswell analysis on DSC, fascinating as ever

[Dario911]

Originally Posted by NightStalk3r

You say that like its a bad thing, but then when you take into consideration that Pillet was also almost 1.5 to 2 seconds faster than the likes of Bell, Bruni and Garcia, it shows that Narac is not slow.

Quit your goddamn nonsense.

Oh, now I understand. But you have to consider the real potential of the car. If the car could be at least 1"5 faster than its rivals, the drivers must push it consistently faster than the rivals, and not on the same time of the opponents. Don't you think?
This could be done by a top driver, certainly not by a gentleman. And so, this is the motive I would prefer two top drivers on the same Porsche, and not a mixed couple.
Bruni and Bell pushed their Ferrari at its 100% all the race long, but at the Porsche they couln't do the same, because only Pilet was able to push to its real limit the RSR.
Is this a nonsense?
If you wanna recover a gap, you must be faster than the others, not as fast as they are.
Expecially when your car is clearly faster than the others...

[Bentley03]

Originally Posted by old man

See Paul Truswell analysis on DSC, fascinating as ever

Indeed. And, as a subscriber (apologies to non DSC subscribers, but it has to be said), what a treat it was to have Trussers 'on duty' for DSC last weekend. His analysis is always fascinating, either confirming or disproving, our own perception of a race. Outstanding!

I thought he was on particularly good form for RLM at Le Mans this year (his contributions were quite exceptional), and his coverage (along with Janos) for DSC last weekend were no less so. More of Trussers in the media please!!!!!

[cmk]

Originally Posted by old man

See Paul Truswell analysis on DSC, fascinating as ever

Quite so. I make the answer to the homework question to be about 119 seconds, with some simple assumptions.

[AndrewF31]

Never thought Panis was that much slower. Lapierre did well in the Oreca.

And Turner is really good. Only guy consistently in the 1:35s in the 009 car. I can see why they traded Ramos for Kox at Le Mans. Not that it meant much in the end!

Narac is about half a second slower than the Ferrari guys (at least Bell and Melo). Mansell only got one stint in and really sucked! Surprised how fast Garcia was, even faster than Bell, Bruni and Melo.

[rich07]

Originally Posted by AndrewF31

Surprised how fast Garcia was, even faster than Bell, Bruni and Melo.

Im not surprised at how fast he is but I do feel for him seeing as though Mansell undid all his hard work..... Garcia has had a wonderful year, good on him.

Whilst being caught up in the battle for GT2 I forgot about Henri!

Congrats to the Pescarolo squad, it has been so long since we have seen them win, I am very happy for them.

[cmk]

Originally Posted by AndrewF31

Never thought Panis was that much slower. Lapierre did well in the Oreca.

And Turner is really good. Only guy consistently in the 1:35s in the 009 car. I can see why they traded Ramos for Kox at Le Mans. Not that it meant much in the end!

Narac is about half a second slower than the Ferrari guys (at least Bell and Melo). Mansell only got one stint in and really sucked! Surprised how fast Garcia was, even faster than Bell, Bruni and Melo.

Keep in mind that the Modena car was on Michelins so the relative pace of Garcia to the JMW boys could be down to tyres. Similarly with a race into the night like this, setup and tyre compound can change the pace of the car over the race significantly irrespective of driver. Also note that Bruni was quicker than Garcia the only time they overlapped temporally (stint 5). A comparison of daylight pace of Garcia and Bell is challenged by Bell's issue in stint 1. Narac is definitely getting quicker and is a very rapid gentleman. Leo Mansell is inexperienced but likely lacks the absolute potential that Bell, Bruni, Melo, Garcia, Pilet and even Narac possess.

Darren Turner is definitely coming up to pace in the P1 for a guy with no prototype experience before this season. No surprise he's faster than gentleman driver Ramos (or Primat) because that's not very hard to do. What's more telling is that he was quicker on average than Enge when they were out together in the middle portion of the race!

[AndrewF31]

Can't remember which tyres ASM was on (Dunlops?) but the RLM guys were saying the Dunlops might have been better suited for this track (I could be wrong here!). JMW is on Dunlops I think.

I was mainly thinking about consistency throughout the race. Only Pilet and Bruni managed to be as consistent as Garcia during the race. Both Bruni and Garcia drove during the day and night, but, as you mentioned, only once they crossed, and Bruni had a slight edge there. There's always something that might esqueue the averages, like Bell's problems or traffic, etc., so these lap times can't be used per se but they are a good starter to analyze the drivers. Hope we see more of these analysis from Truswell!

Ramos is actually a pro, but more of a 2nd tier pro like Mansell. Until 2002 he was more on the national levels in Italian Touring Cars and Spanish GTs. He won the Spanish GT championship in 2002 in a Saleen and moved over to FIA GT in 2003 with Saleen. Even finished 5th in the Saleen in 2002 at Le Mans.

Narac's progression is even better when you consider that he's only been racing at Le Mans since 2005. That's what I got at least from the racingsportscars.com site. And his car finished 4th in class that year.

[MJ_N_09]

I keep hearing how bad Leo Mansell is. Just how slow was he?

[cmk]

Originally Posted by MJ_N_09

I keep hearing how bad Leo Mansell is. Just how slow was he?

He was in the mid 1:51s on average when the top guys in GT2 were running 1:47s and 1:48s on average in the dark. Raymond Narac was at the top end of that range, even. Out to lunch for a 'pro'. Ha.

[cmk]

Originally Posted by AndrewF31

Can't remember which tyres ASM was on (Dunlops?) but the RLM guys were saying the Dunlops might have been better suited for this track (I could be wrong here!). JMW is on Dunlops I think.

I was mainly thinking about consistency throughout the race. Only Pilet and Bruni managed to be as consistent as Garcia during the race. Both Bruni and Garcia drove during the day and night, but, as you mentioned, only once they crossed, and Bruni had a slight edge there. There's always something that might esqueue the averages, like Bell's problems or traffic, etc., so these lap times can't be used per se but they are a good starter to analyze the drivers. Hope we see more of these analysis from Truswell!

Ramos is actually a pro, but more of a 2nd tier pro like Mansell. Until 2002 he was more on the national levels in Italian Touring Cars and Spanish GTs. He won the Spanish GT championship in 2002 in a Saleen and moved over to FIA GT in 2003 with Saleen. Even finished 5th in the Saleen in 2002 at Le Mans.

Narac's progression is even better when you consider that he's only been racing at Le Mans since 2005. That's what I got at least from the racingsportscars.com site. And his car finished 4th in class that year.

GT Dunlops and prototype Dunlops are pretty different beasts. Dunlop has done a great job with the 430 tyre but I think having Michelin back at a development level is giving them a run for their money. Garcia drove really really well, but you'd expect that of a guy who's won for Aston and Corvette at Le Mans, took the Rolex 24 this year, and drove factory BMW touring cars!

I think what you call '2nd tier pro', I call 'fast amateur'. Mansell is not fast enough to be 'pro' without Daddy's backing. Ramos has certainly had a long and relatively successful career, but I fail to see how that makes him 'pro'. He turns up in drives you need funding to acquire, happily trailing his Vodafone backing along behind him... That's not denigrating him, or Raymond Narac, because you can be fast and pay to drive (in some manner). Having guys like Ramos, Primat and Jan Charouz available is also very valuable for a team like Aston Martin - and looking at the lap times, Charouz is now giving nothing away on pace to anyone.

[MJ_N_09]

Originally Posted by cmk

He was in the mid 1:51s on average when the top guys in GT2 were running 1:47s and 1:48s on average in the dark. Raymond Narac was at the top end of that range, even. Out to lunch for a 'pro'. Ha.

Thats not bad.............he's like Seth Neiman or Chapman Ducote.

[Osella]

Gentlemen drivers are part of the lifeblood of sportscar racing; AFAIK, Narac owns his team.
Porsche wouldn't place factory drivers there if they thought any part of the operation wasn't up to scratch. Seems to me, Narac is pretty good - and he has the werewithal to run a team too. So he's one of the most capable people in endurance racing, really.

[old man]

Originally Posted by MJ_N_09

Thats not bad.............he's like Seth Neiman or Chapman Ducote.

True, there have been worse but the cars they are in don't win at this level. The GT2 field here and in FIA is full of top line pro's and losing 4 seconds a lap for 30 + laps is tough for them. Mansell is a gentleman driver not a pro and should be in the car first or second stint so the others can make it up

[AndrewF31]

Originally Posted by cmk

I think what you call '2nd tier pro', I call 'fast amateur'. Mansell is not fast enough to be 'pro' without Daddy's backing. Ramos has certainly had a long and relatively successful career, but I fail to see how that makes him 'pro'. He turns up in drives you need funding to acquire, happily trailing his Vodafone backing along behind him... That's not denigrating him, or Raymond Narac, because you can be fast and pay to drive (in some manner). Having guys like Ramos, Primat and Jan Charouz available is also very valuable for a team like Aston Martin - and looking at the lap times, Charouz is now giving nothing away on pace to anyone.

Ya, Fast Amateur sounds better. Anyone who pays for a ride would be an amateur. Gentleman driver for me, is someone who pays for a joyride. There are a few out there, maybe not that many find their way into the 24 hours or higher echelon racing but there are some. I'm thinking of Lichtner-Hoyer, for one.