BRSCC-the future?

[Snapper Baz]

Many marshals are getting fed-up (apparently)with the way the club is going, drivers are leaving their championships in droves (just 12 cars at Mallory last weekend for the Autoitalia which always had full grids, a combined meagre grid of XR2/3's at oulton last weekend for two championships which always had full grids for both, Southern/Kent FF1600 with no more than a handfull), entry fee costs etc, etc. How do the marshals/drivers see the way things will go next year for the club...have they(the BRSCC) listened to everybodies gripes so far this year and will will see a club that will bring harmony to all members next year...and a visit to Croix? Have drivers and Marshals vented there feelings to the club of have they kept their true feelings bottled up??(PS: with racing license changes for next year Croix probably won't happen anyway!)

[RMR]

I dont think the BRSCC will be too aware of the opinion. unless they look at this forum the only indication they may have is the decline in the numbers, which is a good indication. But how much can the BRSCC do about it. Surely its the circuits themselves charging hell of a lot for the use of the track. for example next friday to test on the Brands GP circuit it will cost £295. for that you get 4 x 25 minutes. bit rude. I think if more pressure was put onto the BRSCC they could make changes or influence the right people. As it is I think alot of people vent there feelings here but rarely gets much further. I know a few mails were written but not much success was had. Its sad the amount of race cars in garages, need a way to cure the problem, not sure how tho.

[JR Ewing]

My understanding is looking at a few changes for next year, particularly for FF1600 which they see as a long-term club mainstay.

[spearce]

JR, do you mean grow the 'king of Kent's or do something about the regional 1600's ?

[JR Ewing]

Basically, yes. The King of Kents to become more of a pukka series where hopefully all the late model Zetec conversions go and then they can bolster the regionals in some way, still keeping all the championships, as the cars are out there and no other club caters for them.
They certainly belive that getting the RF00s and the like away from the local series will add to the grids overall as many are p*ssed off, rightly or wrongly.

A few years ago we have all thriving local series with grids of 20-60 (SoM - NW) and Superclassic National series. The 'King of Kents' will likely attract more aspirational to be pro drivers...

[Stephen Green]

I think RMR has it right, the circuits perpetually increasing charges are making it difficult for most clubs to stay in profit. Members of the BRSCC do read Ten-Tenths from time to time as do members of BARC and other organising clubs.

This is raking over old coals I know but, if the circuit owners and organising clubs got together to promote motorsport and increase takings on the gate, then a disaster might be averted.

I also believe that all clubs, like any business, constantly look at their balance sheets to see where savings can be made, so in the current economic slowdown it wouldn't surprise me to see them make prudent cost cutting measures.

Whatever your views, if either the BRSCC or BARC were ever to suffer serious fincial difficulties, it would be a bad day for British motorsport.

[JR Ewing]

Absolutely right feller.

[Piglet]

I think Stephen raises an interesting point, we spend a lot of time on here talking about what clubs should do for us (marshals and drivers), but without considering the positon of the clubs. I think it's fairly common knowledge that circuit hire charges have gone up, this may be as a result of the common ownership of a number of circuits or it may be an increase in the popularity of track days etc increasing the demand for circuits or perhaps there are other reasons. The end result is the same, the clubs are having to pay more money for the hire. Those costs either have to be passed on or absorbed. If they pass the costs on they either have to charge the entrants more or run more races - both these options are highly unpopular to entrants and to marshals for reasons discussed at length before.

What else should/could they do? As far as I can see I don't think any of the clubs are hugely over staffed anymore, I think they probably run quite efficient organisations; are they in a position to just absorb the increase in costs and if so is that sensible and how long could they survive on that basis?

I'm not attempting to defend the clubs at all, I'm just suggesting that sometimes it is necessary to consider the different sides of an issue.

(PS - I'm with you Stephen on the promotion issue but I'm not sure it can be the ultimate saviour)

[JR Ewing]

Don't forget that the BRSCC entry fees are more than other clubs as they have to make up their (stupid) losses from EUROCAR and, I think, T-Cars.

[Piglet]

Originally posted by JR Ewing
Don't forget that the BRSCC entry fees are more than other clubs as they have to make up their (stupid) losses from EUROCAR and, I think, T-Cars.

I think you may be thinking of ISC...

[JR Ewing]

and that's a third piggy.

[jamo]

I find myself having some sympathy with the club(s) on this discussion.

Why ?

Not (I think) as a result of extravagance and profiteering by the organising clubs - a quick looks at the accounts for each will show that, not that these show all the details of expenses ...

The prime reason appears to be external costs - and prime in these being circuit hire charges and insurance costs.
Unfortunately, the raising of entry fees it seems has been the way chosen by the club(s) to cover these rising costs.

Having been racing for the last 6 yrs, I have seen the entry fees raised year on year by an amount far above the rate of inflation - from memory c£110 a race in 1998 to £160-190 a race this season.

What has been more noticeable this year also is that the entry fees for 'higher profile' venues are significantly higher than others - such as Pembrey, Anglesey, Mallory.

IMO it is entry fees that have put most cars into garages.

Costs of other elements have risen mildly by comparison.

Raising entry fees is not a long term answer.

The rising costs, if they have to be bourne, need to be spread across a wider base - targetting club drivers by increasing entry fees is just turning people away.

Ask the Marshals to pay then ?

Yeah right, they give enough already

Answer has to be raise more from gate money (the public) and sponsorship - at the club / race meeting level not just the competitor.

Fingers tired now, must stop - rant over !!!

[Stephen Green]

It would be interesting to do an excercise such as that done by accountants with regard to taxation.

They refer to their figures which indicate that lower levels of taxation actually results in higher tax revenue. The theory being that more people 'avoid' paying tax by living abroad etc when tax rates are high.

Now forgive me for being a little cynical here, but if they did the same for motor racing, ie, drop entry fees substantially, would it result in full grids, more races and therefore indeed higher income?

I'll leave you to ponder that one.

[RMR]

I agree Stephen. More Cars on the grids i'm sure would also equal bigger crowds.

[jamo]

So, we're agreed then, cheaper entry fees it is for 2004

Seriously though, this is a big factor (I believe) in why people choose to garage their car. Less cars on track make for less interesting races - or at least races with less action in them going down through the field.

And who wants to go and watch 'less interesting' racing - not spectators and not Marshals either !!

[HiRich]

I'm very interested in this, because I'm developing a marketing project right now that seems to target what you are complaining about:
- Recruiting new spectators
- Encouraging them to come back again
- Recruiting new drivers (and other participants like marshals and stewards)
- Improving the lot for existing racers

So, apart from race entry fees (that for clubbies are about twice what they should be), what are the other issues?

[Snapper Baz]

If you was a new racer with a limited budget for some sort of saloon racing cos' you want to do the XR2 thats been sitting in your garden for ages. Do I go Sprinting?-lets see now...£80 (ish)entree fee...sounds good for a days racing...but hang on, I only get 2 timed runs for my £80 so I'll leave that. An Autotest...nahh...handbraking round Tesco's car park isn't my cup of tea. Hillclimbing...the circuits are two far and between and once again, for my outlay I only get a few runs then I go home. Looks like its race circuits...loads of em' about (at the moment!)so what do I run it in? A saloon series with loads of classes which I might be able to fit into...nahh, i'm going to be beaten by something bigger everytime and I'll never get noticed. The XR2 championship, hmmm, nearly always on Northern circuits, normally just one 10 lap thrash, lots of panal bashing, entry fee's look a bit high, loads more dosh to register for the championship,not many others to race against at the moment. 750MC Hothatch championship, hmmm...loads of others to race with, loads of different circuits, possibly two races each time, entree fee's lot less, gets a fair bit of coverage in the mags...think I know what I'm going to do now...can't understand how they can do it cheaper at the same circuits used by other clubs though. Its all very strange...or is it?

[Hamness]

As far as I am concerned,in my capacity as a paying spectator now in my 42nd year of watching from the other side of the fence, it is numbers on the grid that make for a spectacle. Yes there are occasions when a 6 car grid can produce an exciting race and commentators will always hark back to one that happened donkeys years ago when they themselves are presented with such a race, but, unfortunately it does not happen very often. But seeing a 30 car grid on the warm-up lap sets the adrenaline rushing, be it stock hatches or F3, even if the resultant race may fail to deliver what had been anticipated.So how do we get more cars out there to keep us lot happy? Get the entry fees down and give them more track time. I am sure it is no coincidence that the BAS round two weeks ago at Bredon Hill near Tewkesbury which I and a couple of other "circuit" spectator mates went along to for both days, featured the likes of Endaf Owen & Nick Cleal plus over 600 other entries, 19 hours of non-stop entertainment over the 2 days and all for the princely sum of £15 for us punters. I started off watching F1 as a wide eyed kiddie back in the early 60s and have watched virtually every category on our National calendar since then. Now as I enter my latter years can it just be coincidence that I find that Autograss is where the full grids and action are to be found ? At the moment the answer is yes and until the circuits can provide full gids again, then that is where a not inconsiderable number of us have drifted off to.

P.S. In saying that, Combe will be brilliant tomorrow, so get yourself along!

[Peter Mallett]

Good points all.

[spearce]

Donington on Sat (BRSCC) was £190 for a 15 min race. But because of a first lap incident at least 4 of 10 laps were run under 'black and yellow' flag. BRSCC probably did OK (25 entries for our race), bur competiotors didn't get many racing laps for rather a lot of money. After a while you start to think of other, more sensible, things to spend it on ............

[HiRich]

So, if I've understood correctly:
- Entry fees are too high for club and gentleman drivers. But the BRSCC are worse than others (especially the 750MC)
- What's more, the BRSCC seem to have problems with circuit/time management, leading to too many cancelled or shortened (or black/yellow affected races), reinforcing the lack of value for money.
- Races are too short (poor value for money)
- Perhaps related to the high costs, some series are poorly supported (and if you could combine two poorly-supported, 15-lap races, you could offer a 30-lapper with a quarter hour to spare:- competitors get value for money, and spectators get a more interesting race)

Is that a fair summary?

[Chris Y]

Another gripe to add (if only a small one) - BRSCC talk about Radicals, Focus Cup, and almost nothing else, i.e the money spinners. The 'magazine' they send out is laughable. They're also the worst culprits for starting championships that don't go anywhere. ISC, Focus Cup, etc..

Perhaps this is why their entry fees are higher? (they've never quite explained this)

[Andrew Kitson]

A couple of views here from spectators:
I took my other half to a Brands meeting two/three years ago, the first time she had been Motor Racing.
Seemed very impressed with the races that had full grids and went the distance. I guess because the bigger the grid, more chance of seeing side by side action through the field.
Small grid races and red flagged races due to those irritating gravel traps did not impress. She could not understand why there was so much hanging about with nothing going on, except a breakdown truck regularly trying to pull undamaged cars out of the deep gravel.
A common view from many first timers.
Another view:
I have regularly taken my kids along but they too get bored with races with few entries and it is a big challenge keeping kids happy at a race circuit for the whole day anyway. Once I took them to Mallory for a club motorcycle meeting. Not really into two wheels myself but we went for a day out. Loads of bikes in all races and 28 races through the day - all at about 5 laps each. It would not work for cars but the close racing and short events certainly kept them entertained.

The common view from both of these is the full grids.
Take the recent HSCC meetings at Snetterton and Brands GP. Snetterton had 19 entries for the Classic racing cars, some didn't show as always, Brands two weeks later had 37 entries and no doubt a higher entry fee due to being the GP Superprix? It shows that these cars are all out there but how do we get them all out at every meeting?

Would it work better if there was an option to pay a single fee to do a championship or series at a much reduced price - like a season ticket - and you turn up for any of the rounds you want to pre paid? The more rounds you do, the better value you get. If you plan to enter only a few - work, travel commitments etc then the single event entry fee as now? The more cars there are, everybody benefits.

[Redlake27]

I made a pledge never to write a cheque to the BRSCC again 3 years ago!

Their misguided efforts in T Cars, Interactive Sports, British F2, British F3000, Eurocars et al led me to believe that they really did not understand either the competitors or spectators needs.

Since then I have raced in events organised by the 750MC, Jaguar Car Club, MG Car Club, Welsh Racing Drivers Club,Darlington Car Club and found that some race organisers do put the competitor first.

The only exception I would make to my 'clueless BRSCC' statement are Howard Strawford and his midas touch at Castle Combe, and the Overends's who make the most of Mallory.

[Dave Brand]

Originally posted by HiRich
(or black/yellow affected races)

Originally posted by Andrew Kitson
nothing going on, except a breakdown truck regularly trying to pull undamaged cars out of the deep gravel.

OK, so this is a 'BRSCC knocking' thread, but how can you possibly blame the club for either of those two scenarios?