The State of LMP2

[Tim Northcutt]

Just thought I'd raise this question, to see what many of you think....

Granted...this class is a "new" designation this year, that differs somewhat from the previous LMP 675 class (because it should be more privateer friendly and does not include previous 675 competitors such as Zytek and the MG-Lolas...thus it "should" be more affordable for a privateer to run and be competitive)

But in my view, the engine configurations are the same as the 675 class and have been around for at least 4 years.... and a number of the chassis that could compete in 675 -- the aluminum-skinned cars like the Lola B2K/40 and the Pilbeam -- also have been around for about the same amount of time...


Thus, although the "Class Designation" is new, the components that comprise this class really aren't...

Despite this 4-year period of power and chassis development, this class is REALLY struggling with reliability issues....still...and it doesn't look like it will improve anytime soon from the race results I've seen over the laast four years....

The Tampolli was running a pace that was 5-8 seconds slower than the top runner in the class in parctice and qualifying, and spent most of Sunday motoring around in "First In Class" due to attritionor major issues faced by their three competitors....

They, too, retired in the final 15-20 minutes to leave the door open for the PiR Pilbeam to win the class....but only by one lap....the Pilmeam was 15-16 laps behind the Tampolli before Randaccio's car dropped out (why the Tampolli retired, I don't know)....

But I do know that the Pilbeam blew an engine in the warm-ups...scrambled to put a new one in, and then spent a lot of time behind the wall to straighten out a throttle problem before returning to the race...

The AER engine showed (again) that four years of work have created MUCH speed and power...but very, very little reliability...especially in the electrical dept.....

and although Dyson replaced the "starter-nator" in their cars, they too have been plagued with problems...sure...the 16 entry got 7th at Sebring overall as an LMP1...but that car had numerous fires and fueling problems during the race...a problem that is not new to that engine, either....

At Sebring, the LMP2 class winner (powered by the 3.0 L Nissan V-6) sat in the pits for most of the final hour (due to problems) of the event, then returned on the final lap to become "classified" and to claim the class win.....they were many laps ahead of competitors...mainly because the competition had major issues that logged lots of time in the pits for repairs....

The ISSUE:

Do the specs and engine rules for this class need to be looked at again, and maybe revised in such a way that an "affordable" privateer LMP class can be established that also can be reliable???

Personally, I would prefer a 1000 kg. or 1050 kg. class with normally-aspirated engines of 5.0 to 7.0 L, or even 6.0L to 8.0 L in size...

If nothing else, engines of those sizes have been able to compete...and complete...longer endurance races and have been able to withstand the punishment....

The smaller engines in the current LMP2 class have proven that they cannot last....at least over the last four years...

Your thoughts????

[Fab]

To make it short, even if I'm not fair with private teams I appreciate on the other hand : I cannot see any future for this category, except if the reliability improve dramaticaly.

I have to say that I'd prefer a field of 25 LMP1, and the GT/GTS we already know.

This category has always been weak for its birth, and the end of their races is always cahotic...

Sorry for that, WR and Courage

[jhansen]

I believe it comes down to two words...Low Budget. I, like Fab, don't want to bash this class. But it's just tough when you have limited funds. It makes it tough to develop the cars and prepare for the races. And I don't see it changing. I also wonder what the future of this class is.

As an aside, I'm surprised the Lola-Judd combo didn't last at Monza.

[Fogelhund]

Small engined sportscar/prototypes/sportsracers, have been around for decades. The U2 class, the GTP lights.... I think Sebring was a bit of an abberation in terms of the Lola package, as I think you'll find it has been fairly reliable over time. The only excuse would be preparation in this case.

Eligible for this class is the Porsche 3.6 engine. It seems to be reliable in the GT class.... hmmmm

[cybersdorf]

Hm, yes, good idea, let's make the LMP2 engines bigger than the LMP1 engines, by 2000cc. Makes perfect sense I guess. :confused:

[Tim Northcutt]

Originally posted by jhansen
I believe it comes down to two words...Low Budget. I, like Fab, don't want to bash this class. But it's just tough when you have limited funds. It makes it tough to develop the cars and prepare for the races. And I don't see it changing. I also wonder what the future of this class is.

As an aside, I'm surprised the Lola-Judd combo didn't last at Monza.

If my words seem to be "bashing" this category, please understand that this is certainly not my intention....

Something Else that has Surprised me Thus far, under the "New" Rules:

The ACO did add a possible engine configuration to this class that NOT ONE COMPETITOR has taken advantage of, that would probably help the Low Budget situation....

The Normally-Aspirated engines up to 4.0 L that are Homologated for GT Class specifications...

Although I am not completely familiar with engines that DO qualify under this new allowance, the engine that is in the Ferrari 360 Modena would seem to fit the description, as would the BMW in-line 6 that is in the M3....

These engines have some decent power to them, and might save some costs as well....

I should point out that changing the LMP2 class to my suggestion would open up the possibilities for a number of cost-effective options for teams, including high-performance crate motors and sprint car engines....most high-quality sprinter engines can be purchased for less than $40,000....

But I'd rather see someone go with the up-to-4.0 L Homologated GT Class engine....they sure seem to be reliable....

But no one has pursued it thus far...

Finally, I'd like to see this new direction that is "reality' tried and worked on to its fullest, before looking at changes as drastic as the ones I have suggested...

But the prospects for success, from what I've seen over the past four years, does not look overly promising....

[Tim Northcutt]

Originally posted by cybersdorf
Hm, yes, good idea, let's make the LMP2 engines bigger than the LMP1 engines, by 2000cc. Makes perfect sense I guess. :confused:

They would be pulling an extra 300+ lbs....

maybe the 5 L - 7 L range would be more suitable????

I just think they could buy crate motors or sprinter engines rather cheaply....

BUt the current state of this class is one of severe attrition...it is a "non-race"....

and I agrree with Fogelhund....the Porsche 3.6 (normally-aspirated, correct???) would be a solid and reliable engine....

But remeber, the Homologated GT Class engines in LMP2 do not allow turbos or superchargers of any kind....

[FG1]

From inception I never understood what they were getting at with this class. What is the point of a prototype that struggles to compete with the GTS (and for that matter the GT) cars?

FG

[tblincoe]

i agree that lmp2 is a total waste of time in my mind. if you want low budget, race in GT. if you want to do something more there is GTS, and even more there is LMP1... it should just be these three classes as these cars are just WAY too unreliable and cars that are competitive, like the C65, are still pretty expensive. it will be interesting to see if lola can get it right with their new LMP2 when it debuts...

[JAG]

There are two seperate issues here.

The LMP675 MGs and Zyteks have only been unreliable when they have been pushed to compete against the LMP900 cars, which they were never intended to do. If run more conservatively, they have run pretty well.

LMP675 was always intended as a secondry class, in terms of speed, to LMP900.

The new LMP2 class cars cannot compete against LMP1 and so budgets should be lower, and you won't get teams like Dyson on a completely different level to others teams, only going for class wins.

Finally why not have a junior prototype class. We had Group C2 and Camel Lights, and it gives teams a step on the prototype ladder. Even in the 'small' GT class, the best teams are often works supported and virtually unbeatable. Something that will not happen in LMP2.

LMP2 in the LMES should have new entries from Epsilon (2 Courage C65s), Courage Competition, and K2 with a much modified, potentially race winning Pilbeam. It should be good.

[Tim Northcutt]

I'm willing to give this time, but Four years is a LONG time to develop reliability...

I'm willing to give it every chance...but it seems like in every race I've ever watched since the LMP 675 or now the LMP2 categories have competed, this class is literally decimated by mechanical or electrical failures, breakdowns, and/or many, many laps in the pits to straighten out whatever happens to be "ailing" a given LMP2 or 675 car at a given point in a race....

and those failurese have impacted not only the "fast" cars like the MG-Lolas and the Zyteks of the world (in 675), but also the "Backmarkers" in the class as well...

It happened again yesterday in LMP2 at Monza...and it was prevalent as Sebring as well....

Look back at the 675 class at LM the past two years....it literally looked like the "walking wounded" at the finish of the races for this class....

I hope it DOES work out...

and I agree that there should be a "junior prototype class" of some sort....

I want LMP2 to work...and I'll give it time...

Just as I wanted LMP 675 to work...

I gave that three years....and still hoped that it would work...

But thus far, reality has shown this configuration of engine specs to be a major disappointment in the reliability category....

and if I were competing in this class, I'd be going to the "Homologated GT Class engine"...

In order to finish first, first you have to finish....

I have full confidence that, at this point anyway, I would certainly outlast anybody running and AER four-banger turbo....

[Fogelhund]

Tim - take a look back at the finishing records of the LMP675's in ALMS, pre MG. Take a look at FIA's P2 and GrandAM's SRP2 categories.

I think you'll find that these had good reliability records.

[skycafe]

I think the only clear run one of these cars has had was Rand's third overall at Daytona 24 in 2002.

They all are esentially an assemblage of components, and not built from ground up as a whole. Between that and the shoestring budgets of the teams running them, I guess that accounts for your high failure rate.

I still like the little cars. I always liked the 2 litre cars that ran internationally in the seventies--Chevrons and Lolas mostly. They had comparable failure rates.

[cybersdorf]

Originally posted by Tim Northcutt
[B]I just think they could buy crate motors or sprinter engines rather cheaply....

In America but not necessarily in Europe.

LMP2 is designed to be a cheaper, alternative route into prototype racing, just as C2 was, or the Camel Lights (or the Daytona Prot--- never mind ). The reason why they are not doimg well is that in the old 675 class, there was no point in trying to keep up with the MGs if you weren't, well, Reynard, or some other highly specialised builder. Perhaps MG and Lola moved the goalpost slightly when they tried to build a 675 that could win overall; an exciting idea but detrimental to the class as such. Smaller builders such as Lucchini, Osella, PRC clearly aren't in that league, and I am not sure Pilbeam could have built a car like the Zytek or B160 without outside help (at least financially). Now that the LMP2 concept is purely a smaller category again, perhaps others will show up. Lucchini is said to be working on something, Courage has the C65. Engine-wise, I think we are doing fine with what we have right now.

[KA]

To be honest, I really don't understand what's going on with LMP2, and why it's apparently so difficult for anyone to put together a competitive and reliable package, bearing in mind that- as Tim pointed out at the start of he thread- most of the machinery being used has been around for a few years in various combinations.

JAG mentioned C2, and that's one of the reasons why I find the state of LMP2 such a mystery- 20 years ago, we had a secondary prototype category for cars of 700kg, later raised to 750, in which the most commonly used engine options tended to be around the 3 to 4 litre bracket, with the odd 2-litre-ish turbo thrown in- a concept not a million miles away from the current LMP2.

Thinking back to C2, yes, there were some truly dreadful creations, but there were also any number of teams who managed- often on low budgets- to turn out a reasonably reliable and competitive car.

I agree with Tim and Fogelhund that it's suprising no-one's looked at the 'up to 4-litre GT-homologated' engine route- given the apparent fragility of most of the opposition, anyone going that route ought to be fairly successful-

Alternatively, I'd be tempted to talk to some of the Cosworth specialists to see how viable updating the old 3.3 litre DFL would be- after all, they must have ironed most of the bugs out of that one by now....

[Tim Northcutt]

Originally posted by Fogelhund
Tim - take a look back at the finishing records of the LMP675's in ALMS, pre MG. Take a look at FIA's P2 and GrandAM's SRP2 categories.

I think you'll find that these had good reliability records.

But haven't the groups of cars you're referring to raced most of their events in the 2 hr. 30 min. or the 2 hr. 45 min. timed races???

They only raced for a couple of hundred miles in events like that...

I would agree with your point...and I should really consider the whole bigger picture on this issue...especially the "pre MG-Lola" days...

When it comes to the LMP2s, I'm not necessarily saying "Get Rid of Them....."

but at this point, it has not been racing or reliability in this class that is worthy of a world-class sportscar series like the ALMS or the new LMES....

I'm hoping that they ACO, ALMS and LMES) can take a look at this and figure out how to solve it....

or that teams will get smart enough to go to something that might be more reliable...

like the Homologated GT specs engines as an option...

That option can't costthat much to do...

But there are ZERO takers thus far with that option.....

[skycafe]

Rand-Risi's Lola Nissan finished 3rd in Daytona 24, year 2002. Not far behind Doran's Dallara and Mathews RS. Archangel's similar car was a good 6th.

2001 Archangel's Lola Nissan finsished 13th at Daytona.

Both Rand/Risi and Archangel could be considered well funded teams in comparison to their classmates.

I have a question with reference to the AER in the Courage. That is the Nissan V6, and not the turbo 4 MG, correct?

And, another small car that seems to somehow make it to the end has been the Del Bello Reynard Lehman, which has done well over the past few Le Mans. It is rather a guppy amongst the sharks now that it is bumped into P1, but they seem to know how to get it to the end of a 24 hour race.

[weeks]

Would it be possable to run a Lola B160 in the LMP2 class with some ballast? Or does it have to run in LMP1?

[Fogelhund]

The ALMS is a series which will reward success in a 2 hour 45 format moreso then the enduro format.

How reliable was the DBR LMP675's? In basically their first year in ALMS.

Multimatic at LM?

[Mopar]

Im not entirely convinced by this class considering that previous generation of lmp 900 are available and ready to run in lmp1 (im thinking of the resurgeance of the dallaras, reynards etc)for the same buget as an lmp2 car. Is it possible to run the riley and scott mk3 in this class? this would created increase competiton and you would find a mix of USA &eURO cars in the class!

[billnchristy]

Maybe instead of a displacement limit they should have a power to weight limit?

Give the P1s a power to weight similar what they already have and give the P2s a 15-25% less number.

Allow any means necessary to acheive that goal, dyno the car preseason and seal the engine.

If the P2 category is truly supposed to be a "budget" category let the cars run any engine combo they want...be it a Ford pinto turbo or a Chevy 350 crate engine.

[Fab]

The only way to get the chequered flag (at LM) in LMP657 last years was :
- run a real private car, but far too slow IMHO (WR, Reynard by Del Bello)
- run an arrow (DBA), spending part of the race in the pits

Cy, you made clearly a point, new rules (LMP2) should bring back to the initial goal : have a real prototype's category available for privateers.

Courage seems to give a solution with the C65 ; good shot for the November 1000kms, but repetitive fuel pump problems for all the cars at PQs, and then again for the Belmondo car (despite the fact the engine is different) at Monza.

I'm not so found of the new height of the chassis eeing the Nasamax (the only real LMP1) and the C65 LMP2, the cars seem to be back from the past... but it's off topic here.

It's one of the very last chance for the "small category" to convince : if we've another pathetic race, I'll give up and focus my own interrest on the other categories, despite, should I say it again, all my sympathy going to those private teams who make LM living for a long time.

I'm going to shock here, it's only a very personnal impression : on the track, I'd prefer (i said I'd prefer, not that it was better) the terrible Norma than the tasteless Reynard Del Bello. Even dramaticaly slow, an LMP1 make me dream more than an LMP2. Notice that it was not the case with the fantastic LMP675 we had last years...

There still something to do to make this category interresting ; and it's impossible to understand for a "non-fans" public... why those prototypes are so slow ? Not talking about their reliability.

I's prefer to see the privateers in the GT/GTS class... except if they could afford an LMP1.

[Tim Northcutt]

Originally posted by weeks
Would it be possable to run a Lola B160 in the LMP2 class with some ballast? Or does it have to run in LMP1?

It has to run LMP1...

The LMP2 class can be one of two configurations:

a purpose-built carbon fiber car that is configured to the 2004 specs, or

an Aluminum-clad LMP675 car that was "grandfathered" in during this transition period....

[Tim Northcutt]

Originally posted by Mopar
Im not entirely convinced by this class considering that previous generation of lmp 900 are available and ready to run in lmp1 (im thinking of the resurgeance of the dallaras, reynards etc)for the same buget as an lmp2 car. Is it possible to run the riley and scott mk3 in this class? this would created increase competiton and you would find a mix of USA &eURO cars in the class!

To Mopar:

I can tell you this from surfing the "For Sale" sites when I did my "LMP Program on a Shoestring" thread....

The Cheapest price I saw for LMP 900 cars was $160,000 US, and that was for the Lola B98/10's...the forerunner to the Lolas that Taurus is using now....they had big-time cooling problems because of where the intakes for the radiators were located....

I also saw an MKIIIA (Simpson Racing in England?) for $165,000, and a couple of MKIIIB's for $160,000-$200,000 US....

The MK IIIC that AutoCon bought from American Spirit was listed last fall (with spare parts, etc.) for $225,000, but could have been purchased of about $200,000 if a buyer showed up with a trailer at Petit to buy it on the spot after the race and take it home with them...

That price was the "Deal of the Century" for a 2003 specs car with all of the aero upgrades from the Rileys on it...

The Dallaras that RollCentre bought were reported to be somewhere in the range of $300,000 US...

I don't know what the Lotus Elise GT1 sold for (bought by Team Elite), but a price that was listed in the ad for the car (if I remember correctly) was in the range of $140,000 - $150,000 Euros...

There is a Panoz LMP 900 listed (with engine) for $550,000...

Now...

The costs for many of the used LMP2-eligible cars????

I've seen them as cheap as $78,000 (a Debora), with Lola B2K/40s listed from $80,000 to $110,000 .... The Team Jota Pilbeam with an engine was at about $130,000 - $140,000 US...that was the top end....

Thus, an LMP2 is definitely the cheaper buy...

Not even close.....

[Fogelhund]

To be honest, allowing a car such as the C65 into LMP2 is a mistake. The cars should be cheaper to own and operate then this.

They should be aluminum tubs, or other construction, but not carbon.