T Break thread 2023

[Mike Harte]

As I may have written a few times before, when I lived in Spain my house was on the top of a hill, about 300 metres above sea-level. On the roof top solarium I was able top easily see the coast line and also the airport on the coast at St Javier - it was called then called the Murcia Airport until the built the new one inland, yet another white elephant which was really a vanity project by the then mayor which had to be bailed out by the EU.

Anyway, the old airport was actually created on a Spanish Air Force base, and for the majority of the time they shared the single runway and control tower. the major function of the military base was to train their pilots, but it was also the home of the Spanish air display team. The way that it worked was that the Air Force had sole use of the runway during the morning, whilst commercial aircraft had sole use from about 2 o'clock when the military had their lunch and then went off for their siestas. And commercial use continued until very late in the evening.

The result was that I could stand up on the solarium and watch all the trainee pilots plus enjoy watching the display team practising their manoeuvrers. And there were also at least a couple of open days when they had military aircraft from other countries which did displays which I enjoyed watching.

Oh, and on occasions, maybe once or twice a year, military jets flew right over the top of the house at a height of less than fifty feet before then dipping down over the hill at the side of the house. It was low enough that I could feel the heat of the exhaust of the aircraft.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Not sure that's how Mike's post reads because he specifically references the RAF, but hey ho.

My initial reply was to Tel911S' post.....

[justracing]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

I worked at RAE Farnborough during my college years. Building R51 had the longest span roof of its type in Europe. I was standing on it inspecting the asphalt when a SAAB Viggen practicing for the Air Show, did a low pass on reheat. That roof reverberated like a drum skin.

Talking of which, in the last 9 months of my apprenticeship at BAE, Weybridge(formerly the British Aircraft Corporation), I was in the acoustics department working on both aircraft flyover noise and vibration induced acoustic fatigue in airframes. One memorable occasion was undertaking ground running measurements on Concorde at Fairford for which we had a mobile laboratory monitoring microphones mounted in the engine nacelles and exhaust, the mobile unit was parked some 100yards or so away which from memory was a the preproduction 01 aircraft. If you stepped outside of the van your whole chest cavity thumped with the low frequency vibration, pretty scary at the time. I continued in the acoustics department after my apprenticeship and was lucky enough to be included in the group undertaking take off noise measurements on Concorde with out French counterparts down in Toulouse, terrific experience for a 21 year old!

[justracing]

The SAAb Viggen was fabulous looking aircraft but I'm afraid I know very little about the design, I seem to remember some SAAB fighter planes being used by the Australian air force.

[GORDON STREETER]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

As I may have written a few times before, when I lived in Spain my house was on the top of a hill, about 300 metres above sea-level. On the roof top solarium I was able top easily see the coast line and also the airport on the coast at St Javier - it was called then called the Murcia Airport until the built the new one inland, yet another white elephant which was really a vanity project by the then mayor which had to be bailed out by the EU.

We have flown into the old Murcia airport at St Javier many times over the years when it was still open for commercial use if we couldn't get a flight to Almeria. It was a bit daunting as you approached it over the sea because the runway started very close to the beach and you thought that you were landing on the water!. As you said Mike the new airport was built and then mothballed for about 10 years however it doesn't stop there !
Technology moves on a long way in ten years and when the airport was finished and mothballed it would have been designed and built with the available tried and tested gear that would have been fitted when the contracts went out.
As you can't keep fitting new tech as it comes along when building new things you have to fit and stick with what is available at the time, and the whole place would have been built with gear that was probably 12/15 years out of date when it was due to be opened in 2019. So more (probably EU millions) were pumped in to update the place before it was actually opened

[midgetman]

We lost the Herculeses from Lyneham some years ago - and the Beverleys as mentioned many decades before that - but living as I do in the shadow of Salisbury Plain I get increasing numbers of helicopters flying over. We get both "gunship" type and the big Chinooks, and the other day they were so low they had to climb to get out of the little valley my workshop is based in. Plenty of military training going on.

While we were racing at Rowrah, north Cumbria, recently the quarry was "buzzed" by three training jets. As one member of our party (a serving part time officer) mentioned "Wonder what country the pilots are from?" We may not be overtly fighting the war, but there's plenty of activity in that field.

Sent from my AC2003 using Tapatalk

[GORDON STREETER]

Just to cheer you all up a quick video to show that us old hippies are still around and listening to some good sounds.
I filmed this the other week
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZd8IJo8mpc

[Lancsbreaker]

Could be worse ways to spend an evening


Enjoyed that.....

[andy97]

The Hercules, as a generic type, was in service with the RAF for a long time, but they were not the same airframes throughout. The original version on RAF service was the K model, and some of these were extended in fuselage length (I think in the 80s, by Marshalls at Cambridge) but all the K models were replaced by the J model in the 90s. These had updated electronics, head up displays, engine controls and different engines and propellers I think.
So the versions that are retiring are probably about 25-30 years old.
All the above is from memory, and I can’t quickly find the details. Sorry.
I flew to Turkey in an K model about 25 years ago. The coldest and most uncomfortable flight flight I have ever had; the heating wasn’t working so we were all wearing 3 layers of clothing, ear plugs and ear defenders, and the canvas troop seats were not exactly “club class”.
Flew back in. J model - much better. The heating worked! The final part of the flight was at low level from the East Anglian coast north to RAF Waddington, and then back to Lyneham at low level too.

[andy97]

Of course, the Hercules is being retired early for financial reasons. Plenty of life left in them and the Armed Forces, particularly the Special Forces wanted to keep them.
The problem is that the U.K. has 3 types of heavy transport lift aircraft - the C17, the A400 Atlas and the Hercules but needs to make savings so one type had to go and the Hercules are the oldest and smallest airframes. The issue is that the Hercules is a tactical transport and can do things that the other two can’t; we therefore have a capability gap in some discrete areas whilst the A400 is adapted, tested and certified to suit (mainly Special Forces insertion stuff).
The U.K. never meant to have 3 types of transport aircraft - we were part of the European Future Military Airlifter programme (which eventually became the A400) for an aircraft that could cover both strategic and tactical roles. As with many defence projects, particularly multi-national defence projects, the programme was very late and the U.K. needed aircraft to support increased operations in Iraq and Afghanistan and so leased 4 x C17s from the USA as a stop gap. The C17 was very heavily used and the terms of the deal meant it was cheaper to buy them at the end of their lease than pay for the refurbishment. The RAF liked them so much (and the A400 was still late) that the MoD bought extra ones. At this point we should probably have pulled out of A400 but European politics prevailed and we agreed to continue. So, hence, we ended up with a strategic aircraft (C17), a semi strategic and semi tactical aircraft (A400) and a tactical aircraft (Hercules) and one had to go.
The A400 has had a very difficult intro into service - it is proving to have poor reliability and doesn’t do everything it is supposed to, but it is near the beginning of it operational life cycle. The Armed Forces wanted to keep the C17 and the Hercules but too late. U.K. C17s are the hardest worked and highest flying hours fleet in the world so maybe that is the aircraft that should have been retired early?
Either way, the Forces wanted either the C17 OR the A400, AND the Hercules, and not to get rid of the Hercules!

[Gerard C]

Great Andy, thanks. Serious.

[GORDON STREETER]

Getting back to actual car racing, I shall fly back for the weekends racing at my local circuit and catch up with a few old acquaintances that are still doing it.
Hopefully the weather at Brands holds out
Over the years I have had to sometimes fly back to the UK to race and back to Spain a few days later

[John Elwin]

Originally Posted by GORDON STREETER

Getting back to actual car racing, I shall fly back for the weekends racing at my local circuit and catch up with a few old acquaintances that are still doing it.
Hopefully the weather at Brands holds out
Over the years I have had to sometimes fly back to the UK to race and back to Spain a few days later

I thought of you yesterday, Gordon!

Our Alfa Club was on a rally around the French/Belgian border & we called on a Lancia restoration business, where despite there being a couple of Lancia Aurelia's, Maserati Iny etc under restoration, pride of place on one ramp went to a pristine RHD Ford Anglia 1200.

We had an interesting time but really the wrong weekend to be in Belgium as every single village seemed to have a festival going on, which led to a few unintended diversions from the Road Book.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by John Elwin

We had an interesting time but really the wrong weekend to be in Belgium as every single village seemed to have a festival going on, which led to a few unintended diversions from the Road Book.

This reminds me of holidays that I and my family spent in Brittany in the late 70s. We never had any problems going to our destination by car, but on every return journey to St Malo we encountered a town that seemed to always have a festival happening that closed the place to through traffic. No matter that after the first occasion we always stopped there to check if we would have the same problem on our return, we always did.

Unfortunately this was, of course, way before GPS route planners and we just had to follow the diversion signs. The problem was that the signs only appeared to be placed at the start of the diversion and after that you were on your own on how to get back on track, so to speak.

Mind you, having said that, my son and I went to Oulton in his pretty new Range Rover a week ago for the BTCC races and even with it's very fancy GPS system we encountered problems on the return journey. Although most of the time the screen displayed the roads that were congested, etc., when we got to the point where we should have joined the M62, the highways authorities had just closed the entry due to an incident and that initially stumped the GPS and no matter which way we went, it kept trying to send us back to the entry point. In the end my son had change the settings to avoid motorways which eventually sent us on a route that a little way along my son recognised from his travels to Manchester for his work.

It then happened again when trying to leave the M62 as the off ramp was closed due to flooding which caused tailback of traffic. Of course, drivers soon started using the hard shoulder which ended when two police cars came flying through on blues and twos responding to something, and started taking down the reg numbers of the offenders.

[John Elwin]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

This reminds me of holidays that I and my family spent in Brittany in the late 70s. We never had any problems going to our destination by car, but on every return journey to St Malo we encountered a town that seemed to always have a festival happening that closed the place to through traffic. No matter that after the first occasion we always stopped there to check if we would have the same problem on our return, we always did.

Unfortunately this was, of course, way before GPS route planners and we just had to follow the diversion signs. The problem was that the signs only appeared to be placed at the start of the diversion and after that you were on your own on how to get back on track, so to speak.

Mind you, having said that, my son and I went to Oulton in his pretty new Range Rover a week ago for the BTCC races and even with it's very fancy GPS system we encountered problems on the return journey. Although most of the time the screen displayed the roads that were congested, etc., when we got to the point where we should have joined the M62, the highways authorities had just closed the entry due to an incident and that initially stumped the GPS and no matter which way we went, it kept trying to send us back to the entry point. In the end my son had change the settings to avoid motorways which eventually sent us on a route that a little way along my son recognised from his travels to Manchester for his work.

It then happened again when trying to leave the M62 as the off ramp was closed due to flooding which caused tailback of traffic. Of course, drivers soon started using the hard shoulder which ended when two police cars came flying through on blues and twos responding to something, and started taking down the reg numbers of the offenders.

French Deviation' signs? Yes!!!! I had a dose of that last night between Cambrai & Arras when I encountered a 'Route Barree'. The Deviation signs soon petered out but I actually ended up cutting quite a big corner off my journey.

My Garmin Sat-nav packed-up quite early in the journey home yesterday - I am hoping it simply got too hot as we had 33/34 degrees all weekend. However, I had my trustee road atlas & did the journey cross-country without any mistakes.

Sat-navs are a problem when there is a deviation as they always assume you've made a mistake & want to take you back to where you were.

[Peter Mallett]

I left Portsmouth Harbour after my trip to Le Mans and headed up the A3 to get on the M25. Got to Wisley and the A3 was closed, so my sat nav took me on to the old Portsmouth Road through Ripley and from there to Woking. Got to the M25 and guess what? It was closed at J16 and thus I diverted on to the M40. It was nice to see that the Jovial Sailor still exists in Ripley. Since I knew my way around Ripley and Woking it wasn't much of a problem and it was midnight so little traffic to deal with. The m40 route is a regular alternative for me so once again not a problem but I do wonder why these roads were closed with very little advance warning.

[Mike Harte]

Concerning my adventures in Brittany, one day we decided to take a car trip around the area. All fine on the outward journey, but returning by another way, we came across a town or village which had no signage towards the next town/village that we had chosen as our route. Eventually, trusting my sense of direction and trying to understand the map we had with us, we did actually manage to find our way back to where we were staying.

When we asked locals about what we had encountered, they told us that the mayors of the two places had had a falling out many years before, so in a fit of pique and pettiness, the mayor of the place where we had been had all the signs directing traffic to the other place taken down and they had never been replaced. With apologies to our friend Gérard, but bloomin' Frenchies, eh!

[GORDON STREETER]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

but I do wonder why these roads were closed with very little advance warning.

I hate it when you drive down a road for miles and find it blocked off. Very often (especially at night) we have probably all been guilty of moving cones and chancing our luck in the hope that there isn't a huge hole in the road or a JCB parked up blocking the way
We were out one day down here in Spain on what we call a "lost drive", we have always got "proper" maps in the car as these new fangled satnavs have the habit of telling lies ! I said to Sue "where does this road go to" and she said "it seems to stop" so as I always seem to think I know better I carried on.
After going through a one horse village the road did indeed end with a shear drop where every cowboy builder tipped their junk over the edge ! no warning and no barriers ! good job it was daylight
Talking of satnavs, I was asked by a friend in the UK to take a look at a derelict "do upperble" property for sale way out in the campo that he had seen for sale on the internet. We drove for miles with the relevant blurb in the satnav and suddenly it showed that we were about 3 kilos away, after going round the next bend it showed that we were 10 kilos away !!!. I went round in circles for ages and never found it.

[justracing]

Originally Posted by GORDON STREETER

Getting back to actual car racing, I shall fly back for the weekends racing at my local circuit and catch up with a few old acquaintances that are still doing it.
Hopefully the weather at Brands holds out

Hopefully see you there Gordon

[Gerard C]

Originally Posted by John Elwin

Sat-navs are a problem when there is a deviation as they always assume you've made a mistake & want to take you back to where you were.

Ho yes, they are a problem. It all started several years ago and even the pros like taxis now follow crazy itineraries! Left, right, round about, U turns its a total madness. Tomtom, Garmin, Mappy and Waze are supposed to make you life easier. In what I wonder. And since they've "invented" short cut suggestions depending on trafic, a lot of people living in what was previously quite areas see a lot of cars and vans passing in narrow streets. And all this is courtesy of the USA when we're not able to have our own system Galileo working properly. Back to the road Atlas and a good compass and why not ask a native!

[GORDON STREETER]

Originally Posted by Gerard C

and why not ask a native!

That should work OK, but I remember back in the 70s a mate and I were delivering some wheels for Les Weller up in Scotland and we were trying to find a drop off point in Glasgow. I got out and asked some guy where this address was. He told me in his best Glaswegian language that I could not understand and got back in the van. My mate said "well what way is it" and I said "I haven't a clue", he got out of the van and asked someone else and when he got back he said "I couldn't understand them either"

[Gerard C]

Originally Posted by GORDON STREETER

He told me in his best Glaswegian language that I could not understand and got back in the van. My mate said "well what way is it" and I said "I haven't a clue", he got out of the van and asked someone else and when he got back he said "I couldn't understand them either"

Good one! In some french areas when you're lost you've better not ask anything because Mister Hill Billy loves to answer: "Quand on sait pas, on va pas!" Meaning if you cant find your way, better take a hike or stay home. And before answering they love to look at your plate number and listen carefully to your "accent". I hate this kind of situation!

[grantp]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

I left Portsmouth Harbour after my trip to Le Mans and headed up the A3 to get on the M25. Got to Wisley and the A3 was closed, so my sat nav took me on to the old Portsmouth Road through Ripley and from there to Woking. Got to the M25 and guess what? It was closed at J16 and thus I diverted on to the M40. It was nice to see that the Jovial Sailor still exists in Ripley. Since I knew my way around Ripley and Woking it wasn't much of a problem and it was midnight so little traffic to deal with. The m40 route is a regular alternative for me so once again not a problem but I do wonder why these roads were closed with very little advance warning.

Lived in Ripley in the early 70s. Rarely (if ever?) went to the Jovial Sailor then but did visit a couple of times many years later.

As for Sat Navs, Managements's Kia is running an infotainment system update from May 2022 as the later one from November reportedly introduced some annoying "features" And I didn't see any real need to update it.

We were in North Wales for a few days last week and decided to pop along to Penrhyn Castle.

Got some strange directions on the approach to Harlech but ignored them. Then some strange suggestions a few miles later but ignored those too since we were heading a route I knew.

So up the main road towards Caernarfon and Bangor and all was well.

Then there was a suggestion to turn right at a roundabout instead of heading straight over. We were about 10 miles from the destination by then, it would cut off a corner and there seemed to be some reason to so suspect some sort of traffic issues - so we took the directions. And immediately ran into several miles of old-school grit on tar road surface "repairs" which were sounding terrible at anything more than 10mph.

Eventually we reached the destination, crossing over the road I thought we would have been on a mile from the end of the journey.

So on the way back I took the main dual carriageway (A55) that I thought was where we should have been on the way in.

A few miles later the Sat Nav took us off the main road and through Caernarfon and then I rejoined the main road on the other side. (On a positive note we happened to pass a Morrisons Petrol station with sensibly priced fuel so took the opportunity to replenish the tank.)

Rejoing the main dual carriageway the SatNav seemed confused and only sort of recognised the road to display on the map but completely failed to present sensible directions until we got back to the roundabout where it had directed us off the main road earlier.

I suspect that the last SatNav Map update was aware of some redevelopment work in the road a year ago (the time of the last update) that might make the road a possible choice but the routing application had no data to work with to factor it in to the journey.

A couple of weeks ago, during the Download Festival travel farago, we ended up in traffic, stopped for the best part of 40 minutes on the approach to the site.

The Satnav traffic showed our section of road as stationary and a joining road at a T junction as stationary and the road some distance after the junction as stationary. But an immediate section of the road just past the T junction was reportedly clear for a couple of hundred metres.

It clearly was not a clear road but I assumed that whatever the source of the traffic flow data might be had not spotted any significant movement for some time and had simply assumed there was no traffic on the road rather than concluding that 2 non-moving queues approaching that section probably indicated a lack of flow there as well.

I do wonder how much effect AI is having on these information feeds.

[Tel 911S]

Originally Posted by Gerard C

Good one! In some french areas when you're lost you've better not ask anything because Mister Hill Billy loves to answer: "Quand on sait pas, on va pas!" Meaning if you cant find your way, better take a hike or stay home. And before answering they love to look at your plate number and listen carefully to your "accent". I hate this kind of situation!

Gerard , I often found the French to be quite helpful , if you can speak a bit of French .
20 odd years ago I had a delivery [ high tech / high security so could not go by normal mail delivery systems ], to Troyes .
Got to the area where I thought it should be but could not find Street name etc .
Asked a passing Frenchman who did not know it , but he had a map at his home a few hundred meters away . Got there , looked at street map and nothing . He was " devastated " , and it must be "Nouveau"
He had been very helpful , but went back to area with new industrial units , tried a new secure looking factory , with no name , in a street with no name and found the company I wanted .

[S griffin]

Yes, I've been to France and they are quite helpful there. Speaking French helps, even if they can speak better English then they let on. But then times have changed, as English gets more of a requirement. I would love to go back there again, there's plenty to explore.