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Old 7 Apr 2020, 09:34 (Ref:3969077)   #46
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Originally Posted by Casper View Post
Show me where an F1 break through reached a road car, no ifs or buts but actually was developed in F1 and then moved across to a mass produced road car. I might be proven wrong but I simply can't think of anything.
Twin cams

Four valves per cylinder

Limited slip differential

All first introduced in Grand Prix cars. None recent I grant you, but plenty if you look hard enough.
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Old 7 Apr 2020, 09:41 (Ref:3969083)   #47
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Originally Posted by Casper View Post
Show me where an F1 break through reached a road car, no ifs or buts but actually was developed in F1 and then moved across to a mass produced road car. I might be proven wrong but I simply can't think of anything.
That's not what I have suggested has happened. I have suggested that developmental experience within F1 has contributed to the same development of technology on road cars.

Probably best summed up in the following sentence:

'F1 has actually been more about taking technology that has been tried and tinkered with - often with limited success - and pushing it to its very limit. It's at this point that this "perfected" technology then feeds back into the real world.'


Examples include:

'tweaking of technology can be found as far back as 1912, when Renault replaced the overhead camshaft in its race car with a double overhead camshaft. This meant a less restricted airflow at higher speeds as there was a wider angle between the intake and exhaust valves.'

'Carbon Fibre construction had been around for a while, but the MP4/1 unveiled in 1981 was the first car to use carbon fibre to create a single-piece monocoque for the body developing the technology in use by aerospace at the time. This is now used to keep weight down and retain rigidity on higher-end cars.'

'The first semi-automatic transmission, reducing the dependence on the clutch pedal, was developed by Chrysler back in the 1940s, and other manufacturers continued to develop variants of it after the war. However, semi-automatic transmissions never really took off as they were complicated and didn't really suit drivers, offering neither the ease of use of an automatic or the driving quality that comes with a manual transmission.
In the late 1980s, Ferrari developed a semi-automatic gearbox for its F1-89. After some early reliability problems - even Ferrari found it a complicated system - the gearbox proved to be revolutionary, allowing drivers to change gear quickly and reducing occurrences of accidental gear changes.
By the mid-90s, all F1 cars had moved to semi-automatic transmission, while Ferrari was introducing it to the wider public with the F355. The original 1994 Berlinetta version used a manual gearbox, but the semi-automatic transmission was added in 1997. Although still an expensive system, many high-end road cars now use the 'flappy paddle' semi-automatic transmission.'


'Williams FW15C : Traction control, active suspension, anti-lock brakes: these things were all in use in some form or another in production cars. However, the Williams car utilised new electronics packages to control these, [...] since then electronics have playing a much more significant part in the engine management, traction control and braking of our production cars.'
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Old 7 Apr 2020, 15:27 (Ref:3969140)   #48
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Originally Posted by crmalcolm View Post
That's not what I have suggested has happened. I have suggested that developmental experience within F1 has contributed to the same development of technology on road cars.
i drove to work this morning (still going in unfortunately), and used the push start button to fire up the turbocharged engine and, since we had about 15cm of snow in the last few days, i got to take advantage of my car's all wheel drive system (gas is cheap right now so i didnt mind).

one may think i drive a luxury vehicle but its just a very affordable VW Alltrack - basically a fatter slower Golf. over time technology filters both up and down.

while these technologies were not created for racing, they were nevertheless proven on a race track. im sure someone can point out where these ideas really came from (aerospace or military industries or someplace less esoteric) but that just speaks to the back and forth flow of ideas. for me it doesnt necessarily suggest one part of the process (racing in this case) is irrelevant simply because it did not come first in generating those ideas.

for me there is a connection between this sport and mass production to the point where it is no longer even relevant to question where the idea came from in the first place. and of course some technologies will have more use on a race track but irrelevant for a road car and other techs will come to life in a road car but will be considered anathema to proper racing.

im not so much touting the value of blind research but in this era of the virus there is surly an argument to be made about the value of people working and researching ideas that may not look to be obviously or immediately valuable and/or exploitable.

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Originally Posted by peebee2 View Post
...None recent I grant you, but plenty if you look hard enough.
how long does it takes to bring something from bespoke application to mass manufactured and affordable enough for the standard/average road car?

that we see nothing recent may even suggest, F1's limiting of technology/cost controls on new ides is what has slowed the pace of information transfer.

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Originally Posted by Casper View Post
...No data transmission back to the factory from the track...
while i agree that these techs take the 'soul' out of real life racing competitions, i would imagine real time data acquisition and analysis and the feeding of that data into computer models to predict behaviour would be massively important to road cars/autonomous driving technologies.

on one had you say there is nothing F1 does first but then also advocate limiting the possibility of F1 being a leader in cross over technologies.

anyways, at the end of the day i agree with you that F1 needs to find a better and cheaper way to do things. i just remain unconvinced that limiting tech is the way to go.

ending the endless cycle of refinements is closer to where i would draw the line...unfortunately i am not knowledgeable enough to define where exactly that line is any better then that.
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Old 7 Apr 2020, 16:52 (Ref:3969149)   #49
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Originally Posted by peebee2 View Post
Twin cams



Four valves per cylinder



Limited slip differential



All first introduced in Grand Prix cars. None recent I grant you, but plenty if you look hard enough.
Sorry, NONE of those were first in a grand prix car. In fact all can be traced back to street car development between the 1910s and 1940s. But if you'd like try again but actually bring documents with you this time
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Old 7 Apr 2020, 17:36 (Ref:3969160)   #50
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What F 1 is really good at (at least since it became mass entertainment) is giving enough profile to technology to endow it with mainstream credibility . The Chevy Corvair had had turbocharging years before the Renault RS1 in 77 , as had various cars from 911 to Saab 99, turbos had been used in Indy and Le Mans - but it was F1 (and Gp B rally cars) which catapulted turbos into the limelight . Within a year or two, turbos were de rigueur for hot hatches , and turbo branding was everywhere from vacuum cleaners to razors.



Chaparral might have pioneered serious aero , and ground effect , before F1 but their name is unknown outside the sport


Or carbon - a big deal was rightly made of John Barnard's carbon fibre McLaren MP4/1 - but I'd been using carbon fishing rods for years before its debut in 81 .
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Old 7 Apr 2020, 18:40 (Ref:3969170)   #51
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Originally Posted by broadrun96 View Post
Sorry, NONE of those were first in a grand prix car. In fact all can be traced back to street car development between the 1910s and 1940s. But if you'd like try again but actually bring documents with you this time
You. Again.

I do recognise that maybe some knowledge hasn't perhaps reached the keyboard in your bedroom, but if you want to be educated, slowly:

The first motorcar in the world to have an engine with two overhead camshafts and four valves per cylinder was the Peugeot L76 Grand Prix racing car from 1912.

In 1932 Ferdinand Porsche designed and built an Auto Union Grand Prix car. The very high (for the time) power of the design caused the less loaded of the rear wheels to always experience excessive wheel spin at any speed up to around 100 mph. Thus he asked ZF to develop a limited-slip diff idea that he had previously had in order to improve performance.

There’s plenty of other tech to go from F1/GP cars to road, many more recent.

You’re welcome.

Last edited by peebee2; 7 Apr 2020 at 18:50.
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Old 7 Apr 2020, 19:00 (Ref:3969173)   #52
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Originally Posted by peebee2 View Post
You. Again.

I do recognise that maybe some knowledge hasn't perhaps reached the keyboard in your bedroom, but if you want to be educated, slowly:

The first motorcar in the world to have an engine with two overhead camshafts and four valves per cylinder was the Peugeot L76 Grand Prix racing car from 1912.

In 1932 Ferdinand Porsche designed and built an Auto Union Grand Prix car. The very high (for the time) power of the design caused the less loaded of the rear wheels to always experience excessive wheel spin at any speed up to around 100 mph. Thus he asked ZF to develop a limited-slip diff idea that he had previously had in order to improve performance.

There’s plenty of other tech to go from F1/GP cars to road, many more recent.

You’re welcome.
I've learnt something new today.
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Old 7 Apr 2020, 22:43 (Ref:3969204)   #53
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I suspect some of the current engine technology will make its way into road cars. The high thermal efficiencies of current F1 will surely lead to a technology trickle down to roads cars before they all go electric in a number of years time. Another area where F1 technology could be used is the motor/generator used in hybrid systems.
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Old 8 Apr 2020, 00:42 (Ref:3969223)   #54
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Sorry, don't conflate pre-war GP, also directly used as sportscar, with F1. The previous discussion was F1. Sorry, but changing the rules mid topic doesn't make you right. Makes you look foolish. Try again
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Old 8 Apr 2020, 00:52 (Ref:3969224)   #55
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It's time to park this particular line of "discussion"
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Old 8 Apr 2020, 07:37 (Ref:3969255)   #56
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Stop! It’s pathetic. Post removed.
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Old 8 Apr 2020, 07:50 (Ref:3969260)   #57
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Well, so far all I've seen from our posters is that it's important to retain the technology because it is or may be road relevant. Yet surely this technology, which means the manifavturers control the system, is exactly what is creating the problem.

Also with the current lack of car sales does anyine really think boardrooms are going to countenance the kind of expenditure that is currently being expended?

Budget caps are not going to change anything since all they do is push the developments underground and the big teams will still be spending like no tomorrow, if they get their way.

The old trope about unlearning technology fails to consider the possibility of not using it.

So, to put it bluntly, I agree with Brown that without a root and branch overhaul, there will be 4 teams less on the grid next year.
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Old 8 Apr 2020, 09:36 (Ref:3969274)   #58
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Yes , Peter, the number of times some callow youth, after telling me my specs are rose tinted , will squawk ' But you can't uninvent technology ' . Said as if it were the end of the argument rather than the beginning of one .

Excuse the plug, but as I argued in the F 1 chapters of my book (Amazon / 'all good bookshops' - Driven -an elegy) all F1 needs is good legal draughtsmen , working with engineers to write the regs . Of course the game is to look for loopholes but the approach works well enough .

Because F 1 cannot have , or no longer has -

4 wd

ABS

Fully automatic gearbox

Enclosed bodywork

Gas turbine power

6 wheels

Driver adjustable aero - except DRS

Pukka ground effect

...and a whole heap of other stuff , None has been uninvented , just outlawed , and very successfully so .


Ironically , as the current regs stand , F1 is by the far the closest it has ever been to a spec formula , with different race shops building essentially the same car but somehow still managing to spend grotesque amounts of money..
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Old 8 Apr 2020, 09:54 (Ref:3969276)   #59
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Originally Posted by coppice View Post
Yes , Peter, the number of times some callow youth, after telling me my specs are rose tinted , will squawk ' But you can't uninvent technology ' . Said as if it were the end of the argument rather than the beginning of one .

Excuse the plug, but as I argued in the F 1 chapters of my book (Amazon / 'all good bookshops' - Driven -an elegy) all F1 needs is good legal draughtsmen , working with engineers to write the regs . Of course the game is to look for loopholes but the approach works well enough .

Because F 1 cannot have , or no longer has -

4 wd

ABS

Fully automatic gearbox

Enclosed bodywork

Gas turbine power

6 wheels

Driver adjustable aero - except DRS

Pukka ground effect

...and a whole heap of other stuff , None has been uninvented , just outlawed , and very successfully so .


Ironically , as the current regs stand , F1 is by the far the closest it has ever been to a spec formula , with different race shops building essentially the same car but somehow still managing to spend grotesque amounts of money..
Just a thought, on the fact that everyone seems to be building the 'same' car, and a lot of technology has been outlawed.

Do you think everyone would have migrated to the same 4WD/ABS/6-wheel solution if it proved to be effective?

I wonder whether, rather than banning a technology or feature, why not make it acceptable that all teams can use the design? On occasion, you will see a team come up with something 'new' (think Brawn D-Diff) and steal a march on the grid, but over time everyone else will develop towards the same design and restore a relative parity.
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Old 8 Apr 2020, 10:19 (Ref:3969286)   #60
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The reason why these devices were banned were for one of three reasons or sometimes more than one or all three. First of all cost, because teams would have to spend ridiculous amount of money developing it in an arms race. Secondly safety, especially with ground effect skirts that was uncomfortable for the drivers and saw cornering speeds go ridiculously high, so if anything went wrong, it could be big trouble for the driver. And thirdly it lessened the role of the driver, which is why things like traction control are thankfully gone from the sport
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