New engine regs for 2016 - again?!

[Pingguest]

Originally Posted by wnut

Pingy, if you want to succeed at the pinnacle of motorsport you should have to do so in the best racing formula possible, not have the formula whore itself out to your commercial wants and needs!

What is the pinnacle of motorsport? If cutting-edge technology is desired, one should at least propose the re legalization of technology that you consider as making the sport too accessible.

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by Pingguest

Strangely, heavier cars with less grip were always considered and propagated as more difficult to drive. Some people still believe the H-pattern manual gearbox should be reintroduced to make drivers work harder. Nowadays we have heavier cars with reduced grip that require more work to be done inside the cockpit and suddenly that is not what is desired?

What's that quote about being able to please some of the people all of the time and all of the people some of the time?

[mikuni]

Originally Posted by wnut

"A former [F1] driver, Jaime Alguersuari, agrees, saying that the latest generation of F1 car has made the sport "accessible to anyone".
...added Alguersuari, who is now a driver in the new Formula E series."

It's hardly a reliable source, a binned F1 driver. Of course he is going to be a little bitter.

The irony of it is that he now drives in Formula E.

[Greem]

Originally Posted by mikuni

The irony of it is that he now drives in Formula E.

Ironic how, exactly?

[Chaynes321]

I think that this news is very unfair on Honda. Now that FIA have admitted the loophole which will allow all the other engines to be developed they should change the rules to allow Honda to be able to do the same

[Kempi]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

Get rid of power steering and make the cars wider and have wider rear tyres. That would make them work more for their money. I honestly do think that F1 as a sport is in the hands of incompetent lunatics, both in the sporting/commerical sense and in a technical sense too.

When you look at drivers like Mansell, who wrung the neck of cars to get a lap out of them, you had to be quite built to drive one of those things back in the 80s, now I think any skinny kid with skinny jeans straight out of karting can drive one.

Interesting that you site one of the drivers that were always near Exhaustion and certainly among the most unfit of the bunch. You can be sure that the skinny kids of today have much more strength and fitness than Mansell had at any time of his career.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Chaynes321

I think that this news is very unfair on Honda. Now that FIA have admitted the loophole which will allow all the other engines to be developed they should change the rules to allow Honda to be able to do the same

I am a Honda fan and I had initially thought the same thing, but as I understand it, this is not a situation in which everyone but Honda can continue to develop the 2015 PSU throughout all of 2015, but rather it just extends the deadline for making the changes they would have made over the winter (which are limited by the regulations as to what changes they can make anyhow). It just gives them more time to do what they were already doing with the expectation that more time equals better solution.

Additionally, my understanding is that until they homologate the new "2015" PSU, the teams will continue to use the 2014 PSU. It will be a balancing act around how much the extra time will help vs. having to use the older PSU. Especially as Honda will be using their new PSU (as well as Mercedes using the dominant 2014 PSU) the entire time.

I expect Honda could utilize the same loophole if they wanted, but only if they didn't provide ANY PSU at the start of the 2015 season (as they don't have a homologated 2014 PSU to hold them over). But that scenario would never happen as McLaren would have to miss races. If Honda did their homework and learned by observing what worked and didn't work with the 2014 engines, AND they don't have serious teething issues, this should not hurt them much. It is an unintended downside of waiting a year before jumping in. What Honda really needs now is miles in a real car.

Richard

[chillibowl]

glad they found a compromise...just wished they called it a compromise instead of a loop hole.

actually think its good in terms of cost...in a weird way i think letting them spend 'X' dollars to stay competitive is better, more efficient, and just plain financially smarter then all the non Merc teams spending a single dime to field uncompetitive cars in 2015...if that makes sense

and there is more hope that at some point 2015 will become more then a 1 team battle. dont get me wrong as Merc provided great entertainment in 2014 but more teams at the sharp end is still better.

[Chaynes321]

Im confused SKY is reporting that Honda could be left out as I said

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Chaynes321

Im confused SKY is reporting that Honda could be left out as I said

Not sure I understand. As it stands right now, yes Honda can't develop their 2015 engine in the middle of the season after it has been homologated. As mentioned above, I believe existing PSU manufactures that have a 2014 homologation can continue to use those until they homologate their 2015 PSU. The loophole is that no date was set for homologation of the 2015 PSU. So they can delay homologation as long as they want. Honda isn't left out, they could likely delay as well and continue to develop their PSU.... At the expense of not racing at all (as they don't have a 2014 PSU to use in the interim. So yes, they are getting screwed a bit, but they also have a benefit the others don't have. Free development up to now.

The entire thing is screwed up.

Richard

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

Not sure I understand. As it stands right now, yes Honda can't develop their 2015 engine in the middle of the season after it has been homologated. As mentioned above, I believe existing PSU manufactures that have a 2014 homologation can continue to use those until they homologate their 2015 PSU. The loophole is that no date was set for homologation of the 2015 PSU. So they can delay homologation as long as they want. Honda isn't left out, they could likely delay as well and continue to develop their PSU.... At the expense of not racing at all (as they don't have a 2014 PSU to use in the interim. So yes, they are getting screwed a bit, but they also have a benefit the others don't have. Free development up to now.

The entire thing is screwed up.

Richard

This whole scenario plays directly for the advantage of Mercedes.
They have the dominant PSU, so they can sit on their updates and see what the opposition comes up with and then respond.

I still don't quite get how you can race a PSU that has not been homologated for 2015. ?

Loophole written into regulations deliberately to ensure that Honda could not come in and dominate?

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by wnut

This whole scenario plays directly for the advantage of Mercedes.
They have the dominant PSU, so they can sit on their updates and see what the opposition comes up with and then respond.

I agree that Mercedes generally comes out better than most and can sit on thier updates as long as they are still the best. But for Ferrari and Renault it's better than the status quo. It's mostly just a downer for Honda.

Originally Posted by wnut

I still don't quite get how you can race a PSU that has not been homologated for 2015. ?

I haven't read the regulations, but my guess is that homologating a new PSU is an optional (but expected) thing. So as long as you have a homologated PSU (2014 model) and there are no new rules that requires you to make changes (I don't think there is as the spec/rules are frozen) then you are good to go. For example, I think you can use a 2014 monocoque if you wanted?

Originally Posted by wnut

Loophole written into regulations deliberately to ensure that Honda could not come in and dominate?

I like to wear a tin hat as much as the next guy, but I suspect it was a pure oversight with respect to how it was written. I also expect Mercedes to pick up where they left of no matter how much I hope Honda has pulled a rabbit out of the hat. I doubt extra test rig/in house dev time will help Honda a great deal at this point They need integration testing in the McLaren on a real track.

Overall, if my understanding of this is all wrong please point it out. It is all just my take on the various articles I have read on the topic. I can be as wrong as the next person!

Richard

[Mike Harte]

Richard and others, what seems to have happened runs counter to the stance that the FIA was taking late November/early December. At one of the Strategy Group meetings, some teams not running Merc PSUs proposed that they believed that they could run their 2014 units until later in the season as the rules/regulations for 2015 did not mandate a date by which 2015 units had to be homologated.

The FIA's response was that, although this was correct, the rules, etc. made it clear in another article that only one homologated unit per team could be used throughout the 2015 season, and that this essentially trumped the teams' proposal. Outside observers, having looked at the various clauses and articles, seemed to back up the FIA's position.

However, because some of the teams stamped their little feet and generally thrown hissy-fits, the FIA has chosen to ignore it's own rules and regulations, and given in to the spoilt brats. And as you say, the FIA seem now to be holding Honda to follow the regulations that were written at the same time as the above, possibly/probably giving them a distinct disadvantage compared to the others, citing the rule that states that they have to homologate their unit during February.

[Casper]

Hopefully some common sense will prevail and the engine freeze will be removed altogether. This is another case of a manufacturer/team undertaking to join the category understanding that certain rules were in place and then having the goal posts moved. Honda must be more than a little annoyed by all the shenanigans that that are taking place to suit the establishment elite of F1. They should pull the pin and tell everyone to stuff it where the sun doesn't shine and then the brown stuff would hit the fan.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by Casper

Hopefully some common sense will prevail and the engine freeze will be removed altogether. This is another case of a manufacturer/team undertaking to join the category understanding that certain rules were in place and then having the goal posts moved. Honda must be more than a little annoyed by all the shenanigans that that are taking place to suit the establishment elite of F1. They should pull the pin and tell everyone to stuff it where the sun doesn't shine and then the brown stuff would hit the fan.

I get the sense, and I have no proof, that Honda have done just that, possibly slightly more subtly though. This would be borne out by the fact that it is claimed that the FIA is looking anew at Honda's position re upgrades during 2015.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

Richard and others, what seems to have happened runs counter to the stance that the FIA was taking late November/early December. At one of the Strategy Group meetings, some teams not running Merc PSUs proposed that they believed that they could run their 2014 units until later in the season as the rules/regulations for 2015 did not mandate a date by which 2015 units had to be homologated.

The FIA's response was that, although this was correct, the rules, etc. made it clear in another article that only one homologated unit per team could be used throughout the 2015 season, and that this essentially trumped the teams' proposal. Outside observers, having looked at the various clauses and articles, seemed to back up the FIA's position.

However, because some of the teams stamped their little feet and generally thrown hissy-fits, the FIA has chosen to ignore it's own rules and regulations, and given in to the spoilt brats. And as you say, the FIA seem now to be holding Honda to follow the regulations that were written at the same time as the above, possibly/probably giving them a distinct disadvantage compared to the others, citing the rule that states that they have to homologate their unit during February.

I spent just a little time scanning the technical and sporting regulations to try to find the pertinent items. I think it is in appendix 4 of the Sporting Regulations (PSU homologation) and appendix 4 of the Technical Regulation (Annual PSU Homologation/allowable PSU change schedule) . I think it boils down to the following...

* [SR Appendix 4 Paragraph 1. (a)] (paraphrase) You can use an engine that was homologated before 28 Feb 2014 (i.e. a 2014 PSU)

* [SR Appendix 4 Paragraph 1. (b)] (paraphrase) You can use an engine that was homologated after 28 Feb 2014 that have been modified according to the PSU allowable modification table (Note!! That schedule in the technical regulations allows for no modifications in 2014, but there is are some for 2015 and beyond which is the modifications in question)

What is happening is that they are letting Mercedes, Renault and Ferrari go to the letter of the regulations which I think means they can use their 2014 PSU until they decide to homologate a 2015 PSU (which can happen at any time as it is now after 28 Feb 2014 and there is no new date specified for the start of each season after the 2014 season).

* [SR Appendix 4 Paragraph 3] I am going to quote this one directly from the regulations as wording is likely important...

A manufacturer may homologate no more than one specification of power unit.

I personally think that last bit is not as clear as it could be given they screwed up Paragraph 1. I "think" what the intent was is that in the 2015 and beyond seasons (in which changes can be made), that the PSU manufactures can't have a number of different PSU configurations (i.e. track specific PSUs) that they have homologated. So they can only have one homologated PSU spec "at a time" (my text in the quotes). I think it also means they could homologate multiple times throughout the season as long as they only have one specification active at a given moment (new homologation cancels prior). So if I read that correctly, the other PSU manufactures could release changes "as they go" but each new homologation will invalidate the prior spec and all teams (that use that particular PSU) will move forward at the same time.

I think Honda is threatening to dispute the concept of dribbling out changes all season on an extreme interpretation of Paragraph 3??? The extreme being "you can only homologate once". But I don't personally agree with that interpretation as it runs counter to the schedule of allowed changes to cover 2014-2020 which clearly means that over that period you will have homologated your PSU multiple times. It is just clear that the "intent" was that the homologation would happen prior to the start of each season. It just never said that.

Also, there is nothing that says when Honda (or anyone else who wants to jump in and supply a new F1 PSU) has to homologate their PSU. But I assume somewhere else in the regulations it says that you must have a homologated PSU to participate. So at a minimum it has to be homologated prior to some event in the first race weekend (First practice, qualifying, etc.) or maybe earlier due to practical considerations. However, the FIA is actually saying that Honda must follow the lead of how it was done last year. So I assume they are telling Honda they must be homologated by the last day of February 2015 (which is NOT in the regulations).

Given my understanding this means that Honda has little to stand on other than threatening to pull up and leave. But they do have a right to complain and try to get the best deal they can give that the rules have a hole in them.

I don't know how disputes like this are settled. My suggestion would be to allow the existing PSU manufactures to homologate "once" during 2015 and to not provide developmental updates (new PSU homologation) over the length of the season (with Honda locked into a single spec all season long). And that either that one time is a set date (i.e. before mid-season), or there is no specified date, but they do limit each PSU manufacture to a single chance to homologate a 2015 PSU.

Please point out any mistakes in the factual statements (i.e. pertinent regulations).

[Edit: I forgot to mention that I couldn't find anything that said "only one homologated unit per team could be used throughout the 2015 season", but maybe I just didn't look deep enough. I am assuming that refers the "one homologation" paragraph 3 item above.]

Richard

[miatanut]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

* [SR Appendix 4 Paragraph 3] I am going to quote this one directly from the regulations as wording is likely important...

Quote:
A manufacturer may homologate no more than one specification of power unit.

I personally think that last bit is not as clear as it could be given they screwed up Paragraph 1. I "think" what the intent was is that in the 2015 and beyond seasons (in which changes can be made), that the PSU manufactures can't have a number of different PSU configurations (i.e. track specific PSUs) that they have homologated. So they can only have one homologated PSU spec "at a time" (my text in the quotes). I think it also means they could homologate multiple times throughout the season as long as they only have one specification active at a given moment (new homologation cancels prior). So if I read that correctly, the other PSU manufactures could release changes "as they go" but each new homologation will invalidate the prior spec and all teams (that use that particular PSU) will move forward at the same time.

I think Honda is threatening to dispute the concept of dribbling out changes all season on an extreme interpretation of Paragraph 3??? The extreme being "you can only homologate once". But I don't personally agree with that interpretation as it runs counter to the schedule of allowed changes to cover 2014-2020 which clearly means that over that period you will have homologated your PSU multiple times. It is just clear that the "intent" was that the homologation would happen prior to the start of each season. It just never said that.
Richard

Honda's interpretation is the one I naturally came to, so I don't think it's extreme.

FIA intended that everyone have their new engine for the year at the first race of the year, but failed to actually state that deadline.

There is the point system of changes you can make to the engine each year, so each manufacturer can work on their weak spots, but you have to have your changes sorted when you homologate your engine for the new year.

I don't get a meaning that you can make your tweaks over the course of the year. I think only one homologation means you get one bite at the apple each year.

The interesting thing to me, and I haven't heard of FIA taking this position, but I would if I were FIA, is that if you are going to stick with the old year's spec into the new season, then you are still on last year's engine allocation. Taking that approach might force manufacturers to homologate at the beginning of the year.

[Mike Harte]

Richard, you have far more patience than I, and, as far as the quoting of the relevant paragraphs are concerned, we are in accord. My wording was somewhat incorrect, but I meant what Para 3 stated.

However, my understanding of how the 2015 rules were to work was that the PSU would be homologated at a certain point prior to start of the season, and during the course of the season the PSU suppliers would be permitted to make up to, I think that it is 24, alterations to that homologated unit. The unit would remain homologated even though changed, but the unit would be considered to be of the same specification.

Looking at the above, it makes me realise the dangers in letting the inmates take charge of the asylum. These rules and regulations were drafted by the, I believe, F1 Working Party and then pretty well adopted as written by the FIA. It therefore comes as no surprise to me that there exists holes in the regulations that you could drive F1 transporter through.

With my hat on to keep costs down as much as possible, and this may not be popular, I think that none of the existing suppliers should be allowed to make alterations; Red Bull proved on 3 occasions that Mercedes could be beaten. And interestingly, none of the other Mercedes powered cars were anywhere as quick as the Mercs, which points towards the fact that the Silver Arrows were the package to beat rather than it being purely down to the PSUs.

As for the position after Honda join in the fun and games, then if they were to display such an advantage over the rivals, which must be proven to be because of the vast superiority of their PSU, then Honda should have to take steps to "equalise" their unit to provide some parity to the other teams. This would help suppress costs, which has to be a good thing.

[Mike Harte]

I have just read an article on the BBC F1 site, which pretty well, in a much more long-winded way, echoes my posting immediately above. Let's see what happens on Monday at the FIA.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/30731004

[Casper]

I wonder what would happen if an new engine manufacturer entered the 2017 year? I wonder what they were smoking when these regulations were thought to be a good idea

[wolfhound]

The reason for the engine freeze being brought in as I understand it, in the first place was to reduce spending on the actual V6 engine and therefore costs to customer teams. There was also an intention to push development in the direction of the energy recovery and storage systems to look for ways to improve these systems and introduce road car relevance.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by wolfhound

The reason for the engine freeze being brought in as I understand it, in the first place was to reduce spending on the actual V6 engine and therefore costs to customer teams. There was also an intention to push development in the direction of the energy recovery and storage systems to look for ways to improve these systems and introduce road car relevance.

That worked out well for them didn't it.

[VIVA GT]

OK, but one thing I cannot understand is, how does the multiple modifications of the PSU tie in with the limited number of units used rule?
Surely, if a unit is modified it no longer contains all of the parts that were in it when it was first used, wouldn't that then simply make it a new unit?

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by VIVA GT

OK, but one thing I cannot understand is, how does the multiple modifications of the PSU tie in with the limited number of units used rule?
Surely, if a unit is modified it no longer contains all of the parts that were in it when it was first used, wouldn't that then simply make it a new unit?

What you write makes perfect sense to those who are not part of the F1 circus, but I don't believe the rules, as presented to the FIA by the F1 Working Strategy Group, were meant to be clear, and loopholes were inserted or words omitted so as to give the teams leeway.

I think that the FIA were of the opinion that the PSU suppliers would implement the allowed changes before the start of the season, not spread them out over the following months after February of this year. On the other hand, the teams wanted to have that option, so dates were omitted and the FIA rubber stamped the rules.

It would seem as though the FIA are now saying that a homologated unit remains the same specification provided that only the allowed number of change "tokens" are implemented in the same way that the specification remains the same when changes are allowed for reduced cost, reliability, etc. during the course of the season.

[AoB Special Stage]

Just take a tip from WEC, F1M. Energy consumption limits with open engine. Simple.