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Old 26 May 2024, 19:07 (Ref:4210447)   #76
Matt K
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Originally Posted by Evantra View Post
Also… who would’ve predicted no NAPA or Sutton wins 9 races in.
Purely down to the hybrid rules though (the Sutton part). Might be a bit biased as I cheer for him, I admit, but I really don't like the fact that a championship leader just can't get a pole and can't win races. I get no one likes seeing one driver walking away with a title but on the other hand it's pretty anticlimactic when a frontrunner just needs to be in a damage limitation mode all the time.
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Old 26 May 2024, 19:45 (Ref:4210458)   #77
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Good drive by Bobby T and even managed to sneak a very subtle dig at his previous team in the post race interview.
What did he say? I missed that bit
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Old 26 May 2024, 20:04 (Ref:4210460)   #78
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What did he say? I missed that bit
Something along the lines of 'I now have a car that will last until the end of the race'
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Old 26 May 2024, 20:08 (Ref:4210461)   #79
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Purely down to the hybrid rules though (the Sutton part). Might be a bit biased as I cheer for him, I admit, but I really don't like the fact that a championship leader just can't get a pole and can't win races. I get no one likes seeing one driver walking away with a title but on the other hand it's pretty anticlimactic when a frontrunner just needs to be in a damage limitation mode all the time.
It’s not really damaged limitation when he’s had 7/9 podiums and not qualified outside the top 3 yet I think?. He’ll win plenty of times this year don’t you worry.
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Old 26 May 2024, 20:10 (Ref:4210462)   #80
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Also… who would’ve predicted no NAPA or Sutton wins 9 races in.
Probably been rained in
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Old 26 May 2024, 20:29 (Ref:4210467)   #81
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Purely down to the hybrid rules though (the Sutton part). Might be a bit biased as I cheer for him, I admit, but I really don't like the fact that a championship leader just can't get a pole and can't win races. I get no one likes seeing one driver walking away with a title but on the other hand it's pretty anticlimactic when a frontrunner just needs to be in a damage limitation mode all the time.
Really?! Sutton gets a podium in race 1 with virtually no hybrid, then makes the wrong tyre choice in Race 2…. How is that rules forcing him to be in damage limitation mode all the time? He got tyres wrong, just like Ingram and Turkington….
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Old 26 May 2024, 20:45 (Ref:4210477)   #82
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Completely agree, the package is far worse than it used to be.

The problem (I think) is that to appear on the package, it costs a lot of money for a championship, and high entry fees get passed on to competitors. Therefore only manufacturer supported championships tend to end up as a permanent part of the package.

The closest racing is always between slower cars which have a lot of drag (Minis, Caterhams, Legends e.t.c.), but drivers who have a lot of budget and don't mind paying the high entry fees for the TOCA package tend to want to drive faster cars such as Porsches/ Radicals.

Therefore the best championships only make sporadic appearances on the package. Can't really see this changing unless Gow stops charging the support series as much to appear.
I think TOCA is quite a dated promoter with a hangover from when manufacturer series we're queuing up to pay big money for a slot and now they are in the same boat as others in simply trying to fill track time with support races.

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Old 26 May 2024, 20:57 (Ref:4210490)   #83
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I’ll probably get slaughtered for this but what on earth has happened to the TOCA Package?!

Snetterton just half hour down the road for me so I attend both days every year, but will give today a miss and save some money after yesterday.

The Radicals and Porsche Caymans are absolute garbage. Simply not suitable for a headline event IMO. The F4’s have always been average at best, understandably so as it’s a one make single seater series. The Mini’s just isn’t competitive this year unfortunately. Other than the BTCC Sessions it felt like a glorified club event, it really was dire. I know we lost the presence of Ginetta a season or two ago but they really need to find a suitable replacement for that soon. Think it’s a bit of a cheek that the ticket prices for entry stay the same when the support races are a massive step down in quality and in some cases quantity (aware that’s not the circuits fault) I never thought I’d say it but I was actually bored at a BTCC event yesterday.
You're not wrong about the Caymans and the Radicals - with two different car specs & then splitting both classes into pro & am, it seems like all you need to do in the Caymans is to finish to get a trophy. Having spent both days there this weekend another observation is that if it wasn't for the Donington catch-up races, there would have been a severe lack of racing.
With essentially the same package at Silverstone (just substitute the Porsche Carrera Cup for the Radicals) which is the other event each year I normaly go to for both days, for the first time I'm going to buy a Sunday ticket only and drive up & back on the day.
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Old 26 May 2024, 20:58 (Ref:4210491)   #84
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Still, every one of those support traces was 100x more entertaining than the Monaco Grand Prix....... (Mind you, the proliferation of classes and sub-classes in the races is pretty bewildering to the casual observer).
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Old 26 May 2024, 21:10 (Ref:4210502)   #85
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Really?! Sutton gets a podium in race 1 with virtually no hybrid, then makes the wrong tyre choice in Race 2…. How is that rules forcing him to be in damage limitation mode all the time? He got tyres wrong, just like Ingram and Turkington….
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It’s not really damaged limitation when he’s had 7/9 podiums and not qualified outside the top 3 yet I think?. He’ll win plenty of times this year don’t you worry.
You both are right of course and perhaps damage limitation is the wrong expression (sorry!) although I was quite deliberate with that even if it was slightly exaggerated. What I mean is, yes, Sutton's doing an admirable job but let's face it, not even he counts for wins at the moment. In theory R1 could've been an epic fight between Hill and Sutton (well, ok, Hill and the BMW were superb here, might've dominated anyway) but instead Sutton had to settle for third not being able to do anything about Thompson's motorway move on the straight (btw, Bobby did an amazing job today). What I call damage limitation is the fact that a championship leader simply can't really fight for wins - not on account of a car being out of window or whatever, just because the rules are so much against him. This is something I don't really like. Both Turkington and Hill got pole positions and wins when being outside Top 3 in the standings (correct me if I'm wrong). This kind of takes away from the title fight when a championship leader just has to settle for third/fifth/eighth based on less hybrid.

If Sutton stays so consistent that allows him to lead the whole season, I can actually imagine a scenario in which he becomes a champion without a race win. Probably a lot of things would need to align and BTCC is too unpredictable for that but such a scenario is not completely out of question IMO.
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Old 26 May 2024, 22:04 (Ref:4210534)   #86
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If Sutton stays so consistent that allows him to lead the whole season, I can actually imagine a scenario in which he becomes a champion without a race win. Probably a lot of things would need to align and BTCC is too unpredictable for that but such a scenario is not completely out of question IMO.

This is not a new phenomenon, though. For example, in 2018, Turkington won the championship with just one win from 30 races with 6 seconds and 3 third places.

Without spending goodness knows how many hours trawling through the records, I feel that this also applied in other years for other drivers since there have been rules for trying to stop one driver or team running away with the championship. And this is why, as was commented on from the comms box this afternoon, Sutton has adapted his driving style since his earlier years and now more often settles for the points rather than always fighting to get right to the front; I don't mean that he doesn't try to bring the best results home, but he now uses discretion. A lot like Turkington has done for years.
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Old 26 May 2024, 22:56 (Ref:4210581)   #87
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This is not a new phenomenon, though. For example, in 2018, Turkington won the championship with just one win from 30 races with 6 seconds and 3 third places.

Without spending goodness knows how many hours trawling through the records, I feel that this also applied in other years for other drivers since there have been rules for trying to stop one driver or team running away with the championship. And this is why, as was commented on from the comms box this afternoon, Sutton has adapted his driving style since his earlier years and now more often settles for the points rather than always fighting to get right to the front; I don't mean that he doesn't try to bring the best results home, but he now uses discretion. A lot like Turkington has done for years.
That's actually true, however the 1 win from Turkington back in 2018 was still kind of unusual. Anyway, let's see what future rounds bring, for now, I'm not a fan of hybrid becoming too much of a gimmick. Ironically enough, we have three rounds, three repeat winners across Race 1 and 2. Perhaps it's time to introduce two separate quali sessions if they want to get rid of too many repeat winners. Increasing the number of gimmicks can only derail the sport.
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Old 27 May 2024, 03:25 (Ref:4210634)   #88
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Although it’s an easy target would it not be best to judge rules once we have a meeting where we don’t see 4 seasons in one day . Was hoping for dry weather for race 2 so as to see affect of the enforced hard tyre rule but mid race shower scuppered it for the brave . At least though Ingram Sutton and Turkington all got around the rule by using unfavourable tyre in race 2 with suitable results . Sutton consistency is winning day only because the other 3 title contenders have had one terrible day or race . Interesting choice by Hill and Watson to go on wets rather than Hards in last race . Hill ended up alongside Thompson so possibly would have been better by taking the Hard tyre but his early race charge gave him a point for leading race . The less tyre friendly Toyota of Watson showed this to be a bad choice as probably been in top 10 using Hard tyre , especially when you factor in mid grid infighting of others . Cookie seems to be playing along party lines this year . He is usually quicker and more aggressive than Moffat but losing out on track . However he is another whose consistency is winning out . Seats seemed to have better day than PMR today bar the problems Smiley had in race 2 and subsequent accident that resulted from starting at back in final race . All drivers now scored points with Halstead sadly missing opportunity to hoover up some in race 2 had he started on wets also. One too many trips on the crazy cart maybe !
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Old 27 May 2024, 07:12 (Ref:4210648)   #89
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Since this is my local track I went on Saturday and paid for my art by huddling under an umbrella in a Kwik fit bin bag for a few hours . Basic but better than nothing thanks guys . Lunch went home again to be replaced by comfort food of a bacon sarnie on track and a trip to Maccie D just off track for tea. No complaints re amount of races but those that were carried over from Donington were confused and the drivers found themselves in the same weather as they left in the East Midlands . Minis are usually fun but Dan Z is too quick for them this year . Give him a tourer someone . At least in that class a small team can hold its own , well done Lydia W . The F4 class has never been my favourite and the number of slightly jiggled grids confuse rather than add action as car performance doesn’t allow for charges through the field but you do see a new face take its time to shine at the front and we can watch out for them in F1 maybe in a dozen or so years .
Remembering it was the first race of the year the Porsches are a serious bit of kit but everyone was being a little cautious with their new very expensive toys . Promise for future and now much closer to Porsche Carrera cup. Radicals are pointless filler for me. Slow pedestrian and a cumbersome class system not for me . At least giving the perennial victor a drive through penalty in a shortened race gave it some credence . We need that low cost junior serious like the Ginetta full of drivers with the spirit of youthful bravado but not restrained by budget and the discipline of wings etc seen in F4 . One final thought not one serious accident during the whole weekend meaning no race stops or red flags . Well done guys . Anyone seen how to have a monster shunt had to watch the pros on F1 which otherwise was for the paint drying brigade .
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Old 27 May 2024, 07:29 (Ref:4210652)   #90
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That's actually true, however the 1 win from Turkington back in 2018 was still kind of unusual. Anyway, let's see what future rounds bring, for now, I'm not a fan of hybrid becoming too much of a gimmick. Ironically enough, we have three rounds, three repeat winners across Race 1 and 2. Perhaps it's time to introduce two separate quali sessions if they want to get rid of too many repeat winners. Increasing the number of gimmicks can only derail the sport.

I also think that TOCA are introducing too many gimmicks, and even the teams are unable to fully appreciate the rules surrounding them, hence the confusion about the hard compound tyres for the final race.

However, I don't know how to now find out about how the hybrid was used by various drivers, but my recollection is that Sutton managed to find his way from last spot on the grid and get up to 5th whilst using almost none of his available hybrid. The guy is just on another level, and does get his results without putting other drivers off track.
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Old 27 May 2024, 07:49 (Ref:4210655)   #91
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I also think that TOCA are introducing too many gimmicks, and even the teams are unable to fully appreciate the rules surrounding them, hence the confusion about the hard compound tyres for the final race.

However, I don't know how to now find out about how the hybrid was used by various drivers, but my recollection is that Sutton managed to find his way from last spot on the grid and get up to 5th whilst using almost none of his available hybrid. The guy is just on another level, and does get his results without putting other drivers off track.
The option tyres are completely unnecessary in my opinion, there's already enough of variety that prevents one driver from dominating. Trying to figure out who's where on hybrid + who's on which tyre becomes a bit too much of a lottery. Cars are close enough, hybrid is much greater factor than previously so it all should be left at that. That's what I think.

I think Sutton did use a few laps of hybrid in Race 3, don't remember how many though. But yeah, he still seems a man to beat, although we've already seen Turkington and Hill reborn this year + Ingram is strong as always. Adding to that hybrid allocation hurting Sutton much more than last year, and I think any of the four can grab the title this year.
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Old 27 May 2024, 08:33 (Ref:4210662)   #92
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The option tyres are completely unnecessary in my opinion, there's already enough of variety that prevents one driver from dominating. Trying to figure out who's where on hybrid + who's on which tyre becomes a bit too much of a lottery. Cars are close enough, hybrid is much greater factor than previously so it all should be left at that. That's what I think.

I think Sutton did use a few laps of hybrid in Race 3, don't remember how many though. But yeah, he still seems a man to beat, although we've already seen Turkington and Hill reborn this year + Ingram is strong as always. Adding to that hybrid allocation hurting Sutton much more than last year, and I think any of the four can grab the title this year.
The Hard tyres also seem too big of a nerf, with drivers being several seconds off the pace. It feels a bit too artificial with that hard tyre. A medium and option tyre, as the 2 tyre options throughout the weekend wouldn't be too bad
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Old 27 May 2024, 08:35 (Ref:4210663)   #93
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The option tyres are completely unnecessary in my opinion, there's already enough of variety that prevents one driver from dominating. Trying to figure out who's where on hybrid + who's on which tyre becomes a bit too much of a lottery. Cars are close enough, hybrid is much greater factor than previously so it all should be left at that. That's what I think
Yeah, especially the difference between hards and softs is a bit ridiculous, almost splits the grid up into separate classes. I want to see everyone with a chance to win, not be a case of the three or four drivers on softs will inevitably be on the podium even if they start well down the order. Obviously everyone gets the same amount of races and chances on the soft but as you say the hybrid is enough of a variable.

I’m glad Paul O’Neill has questioned the need for it on coverage a couple times now, although can’t imagine Gow would be too happy he did! I’m sure it’s as much there for Goodyear marketing.
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Old 27 May 2024, 08:40 (Ref:4210664)   #94
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I know he’s been well praised, but Thompson was the second-highest scorer this weekend on his debut. Looked far better - in my biased fanboy opinion - than Turkington or Morgan already.
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Old 27 May 2024, 08:45 (Ref:4210665)   #95
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I think what I saw here is that the wet tyres can go further into dry conditions than I first thought. I know by about lap 8 Hill began to fall back in race 3 but his wets hung on well.
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Old 27 May 2024, 09:41 (Ref:4210681)   #96
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I think what I saw here is that the wet tyres can go further into dry conditions than I first thought. I know by about lap 8 Hill began to fall back in race 3 but his wets hung on well.
He finished in the same position that he started, whereas if he'd been on the hards, he'd have finished lower than he started. Clever thinking.
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Old 27 May 2024, 10:59 (Ref:4210688)   #97
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He finished in the same position that he started, whereas if he'd been on the hards, he'd have finished lower than he started. Clever thinking.
Easy to say with hindsight. Were you there?
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Old 27 May 2024, 11:49 (Ref:4210692)   #98
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Easy to say with hindsight. Were you there?
Day number 125670493 of waiting for SV8Predator to say something positive

to be fair, i think it's a more than valid point originally raised when you compare an on the pace Bobby Thompson going backwards on the hard tyre.

Seems like a very clever idea to start Jake on the wets and make hay whilst the sun shines before the slicks become quicker, rather than struggling all race on hard tyres
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Old 27 May 2024, 13:50 (Ref:4210706)   #99
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Easy to say with hindsight. Were you there?
At Snetterton? Yes.
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Old 27 May 2024, 17:20 (Ref:4210723)   #100
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Since this is my local track I went on Saturday and paid for my art by huddling under an umbrella in a Kwik fit bin bag for a few hours . Basic but better than nothing thanks guys . Lunch went home again to be replaced by comfort food of a bacon sarnie on track and a trip to Maccie D just off track for tea. No complaints re amount of races but those that were carried over from Donington were confused and the drivers found themselves in the same weather as they left in the East Midlands . Minis are usually fun but Dan Z is too quick for them this year . Give him a tourer someone . At least in that class a small team can hold its own , well done Lydia W . The F4 class has never been my favourite and the number of slightly jiggled grids confuse rather than add action as car performance doesn’t allow for charges through the field but you do see a new face take its time to shine at the front and we can watch out for them in F1 maybe in a dozen or so years .
Remembering it was the first race of the year the Porsches are a serious bit of kit but everyone was being a little cautious with their new very expensive toys . Promise for future and now much closer to Porsche Carrera cup. Radicals are pointless filler for me. Slow pedestrian and a cumbersome class system not for me . At least giving the perennial victor a drive through penalty in a shortened race gave it some credence . We need that low cost junior serious like the Ginetta full of drivers with the spirit of youthful bravado but not restrained by budget and the discipline of wings etc seen in F4 . One final thought not one serious accident during the whole weekend meaning no race stops or red flags . Well done guys . Anyone seen how to have a monster shunt had to watch the pros on F1 which otherwise was for the paint drying brigade .
New Toca junior series coming soon....?
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