[LM24] Le Mans Track Changes (Not Safety Issues!)

[greeny12]

It's only my personal opinion but I cannot help thinking that the seeds of this weekend's tragedy were sown with the most recent track layout change, which remodelled Tertre Rouge into a faster, more flowing corner.

When I first went to Le Mans in 1996 I loved watching from the inside of the track at night (by the little dark tunnel) as the cars slammed their anchors on and seemed to defy physics in slowing for the old corner.

When I went back for the first time after the circuit change that had totally changed and now they just roared past. Maybe Rocky's big accident there in 2007 should have been treated as a warning? Maybe not, I don't know.

It does seem to me, though, that in its new incarnation we now have a pure racing circiut corner but with public road safety margins (i.e. armco and trees).

I hope the full results of the ACO investigation are made known...

[Bernard Bram]

Armco mußt be allowed to flex when hit to absorb energy. Puttin armco right next to immovable objects like trees completely negates its purpose. Might as well not put anything in place. This should'nt have happened period.

[Dunlop Corner]

Any theories as to why the armco kept failing this year? I dont remember needing anywere near ten repairs during the race. Did we previously just race with broken armco or was there something different with the construction this year?

Personally i felt that the armco somehow ripped the cars much more violently, instead of letting it bounce. The Thiriet crash somehow looked completely exagerated like a kid playing with cars. At the low speed and angle, i would have guessed that the car would just bounce slightly and continue against the wall with small damage. Instead the car was lifted into the air and spun around with heavy damage.

I dont know if i an over analysing this, but the nature of the damage from the armco together with the nunerous repairs needed in the race and during practice, i feel that somehow the armco was different this year.

[wewantourdarbyback]

The barriers created far too many problems this year, I hope the ACO are going to have a detailed look at them and if there is a better solution. Allan's accident was tragic and from the look of it completely unexpected, he crashed after Tetre Rouge and into the public road. I don't think you can explain it as a crash at the corner as the impact was in the acceleration area as you are already out of the permanent track. If you say put more tyre barriers there then you need to put them along the entire Mulsanne straight.

[wolfhound]

You have to be careful when putting tyre walls on a straight as when a car glanses off them sideways it can create a massive shunt. If you have a similar impact with an armco barrier the car tends to slide along the barrier. However if the car is going to hit a barrier head on then a tyre wall can work very well.

[kdr]

Originally Posted by greeny12

It's only my personal opinion but I cannot help thinking that the seeds of this weekend's tragedy were sown with the most recent track layout change, which remodelled Tertre Rouge into a faster, more flowing corner.

When I first went to Le Mans in 1996 I loved watching from the inside of the track at night (by the little dark tunnel) as the cars slammed their anchors on and seemed to defy physics in slowing for the old corner.

When I went back for the first time after the circuit change that had totally changed and now they just roared past. Maybe Rocky's big accident there in 2007 should have been treated as a warning? Maybe not, I don't know.

It does seem to me, though, that in its new incarnation we now have a pure racing circiut corner but with public road safety margins (i.e. armco and trees).

I hope the full results of the ACO investigation are made known...

I just posted this in the other track related thread, maybe more relevant here...

The thing is with Tertre Rouge is they made it wider to give it more run off but the consequence is rather than being a corner its now a sweep...and a lot more faster than it ever used to be. Its certainly impressive to watch but the speed that some of the prototypes can take thru there is scary at times.

The run down from the Dunlop Bridge to the Esses, perhaps older visitors could tell us if there were many incidents there, but certainly in the last few years we've had Audi, Lister, Krohn...all having major moments. The fact that its no longer such a sharp corner at the bottom means the cars have more chance to speed up thru the Esses, hence the 30 yard zone rouge on the outside and probably even more speed being carried into an already faster Tertre Rouge...all done as i recall to make it safer for motorbikes on the Bugatti Circuit.

[isynge]

My feeling about this year is that Tertre Rouge felt more flat out than usual.

Using the pretty unscientific measure of how visible glowing brake discs were at night it looked as though there was a bit of a dab at the start, near where big screen on the outside is, and then it's flat all the way through - hence a lot of speed being carried through.

That said, was that a factor in the Simonsen crash? Would shaving a bit of speed off when he speared left have made a difference? To my, again unscientifically schooled, eyes, the issue looks like angle of impact, point of impact, at a speed which would have had to be a lot lower to make a material difference.

[Gingers4Justice]

I'm not going to make any comment on what changes I think should be made, at least for now. Not only am I totally uninformed as a spectator, but it would be a knee-jerk reaction.

The only thing to be said is that this was a tragedy, a tragedy made worse in part to its unexpected nature. This wasn't an accident waiting to happen. We didn't see this coming. There's something to be analysed in that I guess.

RIP Allan Simonsen.

[deggis]

Originally Posted by Dunlop Corner

Any theories as to why the armco kept failing this year? I dont remember needing anywere near ten repairs during the race. Did we previously just race with broken armco or was there something different with the construction this year?

Earlier post:

Originally Posted by Peat

But why was it that this year we saw so much damage to it? Dumb luck? Ant Davidson suggested that the water-table was high and so the ground around the posts is soft, making the whole lot 'give' alot more.

That sounds plausible. Where Ant said this? Link? If on RLM, any idea when?

[deggis]

One change was pretty obvious during any night onboard especially on the straights: these reflectors on the barriers. I looked at onboards from two previous years, they were already some there, but now a lot more frequently and in all sections. Were they put there by ACO or is this something that was because they are public roads? They do look a lot like these reflectors on highways.

I wonder how many more years until the whole track is basically lit. :|

[Peat]

It was definitely on RLM, but i only 'think' that Ant said it.

Because at the time, i was very...........very drunk.

[Purist]

IF it was up to me, I'd certainly change the two things I mentioned in the other thread. I'd tighten up the first apex of Tertre Rouge somewhat, and make the second part of the corner a nice curve, instead of a more abrupt kink. I'd also make Mulsanne a strait in, straight out corner again.

In addition, they have run-off there now, so I see no reason why they couldn't reinstate the old Dunlop Curve for the Sportscars. They could leave the chicane in for the bikes, if they must.

[Mal]

As I have said on the track safety thread IF the tree played a part in the accident then this situation needs to be addressed by adapting or protecting the barrier or moving the trees

[Aysedasi]

I suspect moving the trees without removing them completely would be difficult.... I think much needs to be assessed before anything is changed, otherwise you end up changing something which may have had little or no bearing and risk leaving something (like the newly painted lines) which actually caused the problem.

Originally Posted by wolfhound

You have to be careful when putting tyre walls on a straight as when a car glanses off them sideways it can create a massive shunt. If you have a similar impact with an armco barrier the car tends to slide along the barrier. However if the car is going to hit a barrier head on then a tyre wall can work very well.

I agree 100%. Tyres lining the armco on the straight is not the answer nor has it been demonstrated to be necessary in my opinion. Cars hitting those tyres at considerable speed will be bounced back leaving a debris field as wide as the Titanic's.....

[Aysedasi]

Can I just add that we have a 'Track Safety' thread and we're ending up spreading posts between this one and that or even the same posts in both... This one was always intended for comment upon changes that have already happened or are proposed. If you're wanting to comment on track safety issues, can you use the other thread please. Otherwise I'm just gonna have to start moving posts over - and you can avoid me having to do that by putting them in the right place to start with. Thanks.