Rules Future Rule Changes - Page 100

EffectiveSprinkles · 20 Aug 2018, 22:37 (Ref:3845088)

The gains made in fuel consumption reduction in ICEs are pretty insane the last 5-6 years even. Take a sideways glance at the current Toyota LMP1 which is the fastest (legal

) LMP prototype ever made around every track it goes to. And it does that while consuming a ridiculously low amount of fuel and with incredible efficiency. F1 engines are slightly worse in that regard but that's mostly just a difference in sporting regulations rather than a technical reason. The current crop of F1 cars are not the fastest but definitely the most efficient.

I would go so far as to say the past 5 years there have been way more gains made in ICE technology than EV technology. I mean, VW for example spends like 4 billion on R&D a year, only a fraction of that is spent on EVs. Oh, they also announced 9 new 'electric vehicles' for 2020. But only two of those are EVs, the others are hybrids.

Richard C · 21 Aug 2018, 20:27 (Ref:3845276)

I found this article interesting.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/c...a-lot/3161292/

Especially the perspective of the drivers (or some of the drivers) who don't drive for Mercedes, Ferrari or Red Bull. The following quote, at some level I guess I knew this, but it is still shocking to read the statistic in black and white (I added the bold)...

Quote:

Perez is one of the only drivers outside those teams to score a podium in the last three seasons, which he says is because F1 has changed significantly even since 2012, when he scored three podiums for a Sauber team that was not even best of the rest.

I figured I would see what the driver championship would look like for the "B Class". I awarded points using the current system, but I also pretended that the drivers for those three teams just didn't exist in the results. I hope my math is right. The order is slightly different. I think that is because sometimes drivers from the top three teams finish down in the order and their removal moves some drivers up a good bit in the points.

Nico Hülkenberg	169
Kevin Magnussen	147
Carlos Sainz Jr.	133
Fernando Alonso	123
Esteban Ocon	113
Sergio Pérez	106
Pierre Gasly	89
Romain Grosjean	74
Charles Leclerc	65
Stoffel Vandoorne	62
Marcus Ericsson	52
Brendon Hartley	34
Lance Stroll	32
Sergey Sirotkin	10

Anyhow, look out for potential B Class champion Nico Hulkenburg! Also, Alonso would have won two races and been on the podium five times!

Richard

Casper · 22 Aug 2018, 11:02 (Ref:3845356)

Quote:

Originally Posted by EffectiveSprinkles

. Oh, they also announced 9 new 'electric vehicles' for 2020. But only two of those are EVs, the others are hybrids.

Yep, all designed in the last 5 years. How many hybrids do you think they will be currently designing for release in the next decade? My guess is zero.

Akrapovic · 22 Aug 2018, 12:20 (Ref:3845363)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Casper

Yep, all designed in the last 5 years. How many hybrids do you think they will be currently designing for release in the next decade? My guess is zero.

They currently are being designed and will be released in the next decade. That meets your criteria.

Saying "Show me cars that are not on the drawing board yet" is ridiculous. You yourself said that cars are designed over 5 or so years. Car manufacturers don't announce that far ahead. So what you're asking for is proof that cars that haven't been announced yet, exist. But aren't on the drawing board.

I don't get it. Anyway, hybrids aren't going away any time soon. I'm a big supporter of EVs, but we're decades away from having the infrastructure to cope with a full country of them.

S griffin · 21 Aug 2018, 20:48 (Ref:3845278)

This is one of the reasons Fred left. Autosport does it’s own class B championship on the website. Quite frankly, you can’t blame the top three teams for giving it their all, but at the same time, it would be good to see more teams at least closer to them, as more competition at the top would be very healthy for the series

loon · 21 Aug 2018, 21:08 (Ref:3845284)

all those poor old drivers in cars that can't win, why don't they just sod off and get a winning drive in the blancpain gt series

EffectiveSprinkles · 21 Aug 2018, 22:43 (Ref:3845294)

I do wonder though. How many times have there been more than three teams capable of wins and podiums in F1 during a stretch of years? I might be wrong about this but I think eras of dominance by one or two teams are the norm, not the exception.

leothedrummer · 22 Aug 2018, 01:59 (Ref:3845307)

Quote:

Originally Posted by EffectiveSprinkles

I do wonder though. How many times have there been more than three teams capable of wins and podiums in F1 during a stretch of years? I might be wrong about this but I think eras of dominance by one or two teams are the norm, not the exception.

I know you're talking about pure dominance which is a little bit different, but I just had a quick glance and 2012 had 6 different teams picking up wins, including 5 different winning teams in the first 5 races.

Curious to know about podiums though.

Akrapovic · 22 Aug 2018, 14:53 (Ref:3845394)

Range extenders have the issue that when you're running off the power than the generator is creating for you, that it limits your speed quite drastically. Range extenders also have the problem that if you're going on the idea that you need it "just in case", then you're lugging around a large electric generator, using up energy, for no gain the majority of the time.

The range extender generator is about safety and not being stranded. It is, in itself, not a concept for a full vehicle. It's to calm down range anxiety.

GasperG · 23 Aug 2018, 10:07 (Ref:3845520)

100% agree with @Akrapovic

@Casper, home charging and fast charging will be the main hurdle for faster EV adoption, meanwhile hybrids will be replacing normal ICE cars, because Hybrid can be a mechanical simplification for meeting future emissions standards. To put it differently, NA petrol hybrid will be (or already is) cheaper than turbo diesel, with DPF, SCR and double clutch transmission. Hybrids basically are a future ICE cars, for people living in homes without dedicated parking spaces and charging infrastructure.

F1Guy · 23 Aug 2018, 10:20 (Ref:3845521)

Wow, how off topic has this gone? Maybe we need another thread in another part of the forum to discuss the future EV/Hybrid era, and leave this thread to discuss the topic in the title? No??

Back on topic, news suggest the 2021 engine rule change may not go ahead after all. A rethink of the changes, and a evolution of the current engine is the most likely outcome.

This backflip was almost certainly on the cards once no new manufacturers had committed to enter the series.

Mike Bell · 23 Aug 2018, 10:28 (Ref:3845525)

Quote:

Originally Posted by F1Guy

Wow, how off topic has this gone? Maybe we need another thread in another part of the forum to discuss the future EV/Hybrid era, and leave this thread to discuss the topic in the title? No??

One for the F1 moderators to decide.....

F1Guy · 28 Aug 2018, 11:36 (Ref:3846712)

So rear wings are to be higher in 2019 then.

I like the height the rear wings are at currently. The cars look much better than the previous rear wings, which were introduced in '09.
The '09-'16 rear wings were just too damn high. Probably as high as the people who came up with the '09 aero rules!!

crmalcolm · 28 Aug 2018, 12:03 (Ref:3846713)

Quote:

Originally Posted by F1Guy

So rear wings are to be higher in 2019 then.

Source?

How much higher, are they wider, is DRS affected?

Hard to discuss the matter, if we don't have the full information to hand.....

Akrapovic · 28 Aug 2018, 12:59 (Ref:3846717)

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/f...rrors/3166804/

More info here.

S griffin · 28 Aug 2018, 14:03 (Ref:3846725)

If it means less downforce again, I'm for it

crmalcolm · 28 Aug 2018, 14:20 (Ref:3846735)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/f...rrors/3166804/

More info here.

Thanks for the link.

Quote:

Originally Posted by S griffin

If it means less downforce again, I'm for it

The article suggests the wings will also be wider and deeper - so more downforce. But, a more effective DRS as a result.

VIVA GT · 28 Aug 2018, 15:06 (Ref:3846740)

Sorry, I've not read the article yet but will this also help other cars to follow more closely as the wing is higher?

crmalcolm · 28 Aug 2018, 15:14 (Ref:3846741)

Quote:

Originally Posted by VIVA GT

Sorry, I've not read the article yet but will this also help other cars to follow more closely as the wing is higher?

It seems like a flaw in the design - but I guess the truth will be seen on track.

In theory, a wider and deeper wing will mean the air has been worked harder and so reduce the following car's performance. But once they get within the DRS zone, they should be able to catch and pass easier as the effect will be greater.

VIVA GT · 28 Aug 2018, 16:06 (Ref:3846746)

Quote:

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

It seems like a flaw in the design - but I guess the truth will be seen on track.

In theory, a wider and deeper wing will mean the air has been worked harder and so reduce the following car's performance. But once they get within the DRS zone, they should be able to catch and pass easier as the effect will be greater.

Giving with one hand and taking away again with the other. Seems like another FOM cock up then!

crmalcolm · 28 Aug 2018, 16:44 (Ref:3846750)

Quote:

Originally Posted by VIVA GT

Giving with one hand and taking away again with the other. Seems like another FOM cock up then!

Although it has to be remembered that the new wing is for safety purposes, not to improve racing.
If it makes the cars safer, it achieves its purpose - even if the racing suffers as a result.

chillibowl · 29 Aug 2018, 15:01 (Ref:3846896)

and while Liberty may be dealing with the venues in a better way, they are still struggling to come up with ideas to tighten up the racing.

the length of the DRS zones in Russia, Austin, Brazil, and Abu Dhabi will be increased for the upcoming races.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/f...166260/?nrt=54

granted there is not much else they can do and DRS is certainly an issue that divides...my personal feeling is that it wont make much of a difference.

imo, any potential benefits in tightening up the field will be off set as the season winds down and most teams shift towards conserving power, reducing their willingness to spend any more for this season, and basically just try to hold station.

i do hope i am wrong on that though, and do have some hope that the unintended consequence of taking away Force India's 2018 points could mean we see a reignited late season battle in the mid field as the new entity tries to move back up the table.

**bjohnsonsmith** · 28 Aug 2018, 16:21 (Ref:3846747)

Not only will the rear wing be different but there will be changes to the front wing, as well as the front break ducts.

http://www.racecar-engineering.com/a...-aero-changes/

S griffin · 29 Aug 2018, 16:21 (Ref:3846912)

The sooner we get rid of DRS and have cars that can actually follow closely, the better

MissClarrpz · 1 Sep 2018, 09:50 (Ref:3847371)

Hopefully we can get cars that can actually follow closely by 2021 but DRS could still be used. I think having it on a small straight just before the main straight would be good. It gives a possible chance in a usually non-passing place and can help get a car closer to the slip stream for the main straight. Eg, final straight before start/finish straight in Bahrain, between T10 and T11 China leading onto back straight, into the hairpin in Montreal etc.

If we can go back to no DRS that is better but I would be very happy with this if racing needs a little (note little) nudge to improve

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