[BTCC] BTCC 2020 season discussion, News and Rumours!

[AnnoyedMoose]

Originally Posted by WestHam92

Doesn't that prove my point? If Crees is a club racer, then why is he in "Britain's premier motor racing series"? It's not Crees I have a problem with per se, it's the setup of the championship that allows him to compete in it.

I didn't say Crees was a club racer rather that it's relatable to a club racer. They can see that it's possible for them to get to BTCC whereas the next most popular motorsport amongst the British public is an impossible dream.

Anyway what's wrong with club racers? Are the only people allowed to race in BTCC those who have contracts with manufacturers from 8 years old?

I know many club racers who could do a very good job in BTCC and some who would definitely be on the podium in the right car but, as with all motorsport, money is the stumbling block.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by WestHam92

If Crees is a club racer, then why is he in "Britain's premier motor racing series"?

Out of interest, what do you feel is the difference between a 'club racer' and a driver who would compete in the BTCC?

What level of Motorsport moves beyond 'club'?

[WestHam92]

Originally Posted by AnnoyedMoose

I didn't say Crees was a club racer rather that it's relatable to a club racer. They can see that it's possible for them to get to BTCC whereas the next most popular motorsport amongst the British public is an impossible dream.

Anyway what's wrong with club racers? Are the only people allowed to race in BTCC those who have contracts with manufacturers from 8 years old?

I know many club racers who could do a very good job in BTCC and some who would definitely be on the podium in the right car but, as with all motorsport, money is the stumbling block.

Nothing wrong with club racers as long as they're competitive or competitive against those in equal machinery. So far Crees hasn't done that.

[WestHam92]

Originally Posted by Millvi

Just look at the transformation of Osbourne with his move from the MG to the FK2 Civic. He was woeful in the MG, but is far from that so far this season.

Likewise Goff struggling with the VW at Team Hard. Would love to see Team Hard get more competitive replacements for the VWs. What cars are out there? Simpson’s Civic?

Could Osborne be getting better results because he's in a better car? I guess we'll never know exactly how good the drivers are in comparison to each other unless they're given equal cars (that's not something I want to see by the way!)

I'm just not convinced that a driver becomes better because they're getting decent results, rather that they've got a good car to drive. Plenty of drivers would have struggled in the MG and plenty would do better than him in the Civic.

[S griffin]

If you look at it Crees hasn't done a bad job. He's not on the pace of Chilton and Cook but then it was unlikely he would have done, but he's got a couple of 11ths and a couple of 12ths, which is not bad going. He's slowly improved and deserves credit for that

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by WestHam92

Nothing wrong with club racers as long as they're competitive or competitive against those in equal machinery. So far Crees hasn't done that.

He's 8 points behind Cook in the same machinery in the drivers championship.
He's ahead of Cook by 9 points in the independents championship.

Leading the Jack Sears as well. I'm not sure how much higher up in the standings you think he should be?

If Crees was higher, would Aiden Moffat be the one we are critical of? (98 points behind his team-mate).
Matt Neal - 51 points behind his team-mate.
Cook - half the points of Chilton.

As I said before, someone has to be towards the rear of the field. The current 'back-markers' are all still competitive in their own right.
Matt Neal in 13th is 100 points behind 1st. Hamilton in 26th is 40 points behind Neal. The back is closer to the middle than the middle is to the front.

[Evantra]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

He's 8 points behind Cook in the same machinery in the drivers championship.
He's ahead of Cook by 9 points in the independents championship.

Cook and Crees don't even start to compare. Josh should be in the top half dozen in the standings.

[RS67]

Originally Posted by WestHam92

Could Osborne be getting better results because he's in a better car? I guess we'll never know exactly how good the drivers are in comparison to each other unless they're given equal cars (that's not something I want to see by the way!)

I'm just not convinced that a driver becomes better because they're getting decent results, rather that they've got a good car to drive. Plenty of drivers would have struggled in the MG and plenty would do better than him in the Civic.

So by your reckoning, in the 2018 season Plato was nothing but a club racer and shouldn't have been in the championship.
I guess you at least got your wish granted for this year.

[S griffin]

To be fair Plato did at least get a podium in 2018, but I agree that we shouldn’t focus too much on results

[WestHam92]

Originally Posted by RS67

So by your reckoning, in the 2018 season Plato was nothing but a club racer and shouldn't have been in the championship.
I guess you at least got your wish granted for this year.

Yes, I'm delighted that a driver who has won 97 BTCC races isn't in the championship this season.

[FFSM]

Originally Posted by Millvi

It was a throttle problem and Carl said the pedal didn’t return when he let his foot off the gas.

Carl’s an experienced racer who’s now getting to grips with BTCC and the Series 1 BMW.

Thank heavens it wasn't during the race!

[touringcarnut]

There is an outrageous level of snobbery against some of the lesser established drivers from some quarters on here.

We have always had some weak drivers who seemed to stick it in the gravel each round but that has been the case even during the manufacture dominated 90s. In fairness, plenty of ex F1 drivers have found it very hard to get results in the BTCC (even Nigel had some terrible races) so less of the elitism and more realism that yes, money talks but it also part pays for the seats of some of the other drivers on the grid

[Alfisti]

I've not caught up on any of the weekends events yet. It appears however that this forum has attracted a new idiot or two.

Every single one of the drivers on the TOCA package deserves to be where they are. They have qualified for the appropriate racing licence and have convinced backers of their worthiness to part with sponsor money to fund their racing.

Some will always be more talented than others. That applies to everyone in whatever they do.

If we apply some posters logic, should the only cars in F1 be Hamilton, Bottas and Verstappen? None of the others come close to these three in my eye. They're probably all "club" racers are they?

[billy bleach]

Originally Posted by WestHam92

Could Osborne be getting better results because he's in a better car? I guess we'll never know exactly how good the drivers are in comparison to each other unless they're given equal cars (that's not something I want to see by the way!)

I'm just not convinced that a driver becomes better because they're getting decent results, rather that they've got a good car to drive. Plenty of drivers would have struggled in the MG and plenty would do better than him in the Civic.

So to apply your logic all the drivers are Cr&p its the cars that make them What a twisted view point . What may be true is a good driver cannot succeed in a poor car (Alonso springs to mind or JP recently) but an average driver may look better in a good car ( Andy Neate for example) why turn up on here with a massive axe to grind and spew nonsense .

[5five]

Originally Posted by Millvi

It was a throttle problem and Carl said the pedal didn’t return when he let his foot off the gas.

Carl’s an experienced racer who’s now getting to grips with BTCC and the Series 1 BMW.

I don't begrudge anyone with any talent (as long as they are not a physical danger to someone else) having a go in the BTCC. As Brits, we all love an underdog and it is always great to see someone outperform their perspective ability and machinery.

What is frustrating as a viewer is the seemingly "bit crap" teams which take part which seem to have under prepared , or potentially unsafe cars on the track. Of course, failures happen, but some teams definitely have more than others. When these teams also seem to have the least resources, and the most cars on the grid - you have to wonder the logic as when they start disrupting races it is probably time they went elsewhere.

I know these teams are a cheap stepping stone to a better drive, and someone has to be the Minardi of the BTCC world - but when you look at a bunch of the ex-drivers who are consistently performing better now they have gone to more professional outfits its clear something is wrong (Jake Hill, Chris Smiley, Bobby Thompson, Michael Crees etc). I feel for Jack Goff, who clearly is a cut above the team but paying to remain relevant and struggling (mixed conditions races aside).

I seriously think dropping two cars, focusing on the other two and increasing the budget slightly would yield much better results, like every other team on the grid.

[RS67]

Originally Posted by 5five

I don't begrudge anyone with any talent (as long as they are not a physical danger to someone else) having a go in the BTCC. As Brits, we all love an underdog and it is always great to see someone outperform their perspective ability and machinery.

What is frustrating as a viewer is the seemingly "bit crap" teams which take part which seem to have under prepared , or potentially unsafe cars on the track. Of course, failures happen, but some teams definitely have more than others. When these teams also seem to have the least resources, and the most cars on the grid - you have to wonder the logic as when they start disrupting races it is probably time they went elsewhere.

I know these teams are a cheap stepping stone to a better drive, and someone has to be the Minardi of the BTCC world - but when you look at a bunch of the ex-drivers who are consistently performing better now they have gone to more professional outfits its clear something is wrong (Jake Hill, Chris Smiley, Bobby Thompson, Michael Crees etc). I feel for Jack Goff, who clearly is a cut above the team but paying to remain relevant and struggling (mixed conditions races aside).

I seriously think dropping two cars, focusing on the other two and increasing the budget slightly would yield much better results, like every other team on the grid.

The other way of looking at it is that the cheaper budget gives drivers a stepping stone into the series that they may not otherwise be able to achieve. From there they have the opportunity to move onto other teams.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by 5five

I seriously think dropping two cars, focusing on the other two and increasing the budget slightly would yield much better results, like every other team on the grid.

If they reduce the number of cars, then surely they will have a smaller budget?

I'm not sure I can correlate increasing the budget with less bodywork to sell advertising space against?
Currently they run with three title sponsors, with a fourth being included in a team name. They also, by having 3-4 seats available in the BTCC, are able to market their 'feeder' programmes with a more realistic chance of drivers graduating to the BTCC from them.

Hill, Bushell, Smiley, Moffat have all been through their programme, and have gone on to be accepted as worthy of their place in the BTCC (by the majority).
Yes they have rarely challenged for wins or titles, but have they really caused damage to the series in any way that is worse than Simpson, HMS, BKR, Goodestone, Houseman, Exocet, Support Our Paras......



*** I'm not saying those last teams caused damage, just that they were not able to stick around like HARD have been able to ***

[RS67]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

*** I'm not saying those last teams caused damage, just that they were not able to stick around like HARD have been able to ***

I'd also add a certain team to that list, that had trouble paying a few bills.

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

If they reduce the number of cars, then surely they will have a smaller budget?

I think the point is the budget per car would increase by a fair margin due to economies of scale.

[MagicBoy]

Originally Posted by RS67

I'd also add a certain team to that list, that had trouble paying a few bills.

I'd argue they're still around, just as half of another team under a different label.

[WestHam92]

Originally Posted by billy bleach

So to apply your logic all the drivers are Cr&p its the cars that make them What a twisted view point . What may be true is a good driver cannot succeed in a poor car (Alonso springs to mind or JP recently) but an average driver may look better in a good car ( Andy Neate for example) why turn up on here with a massive axe to grind and spew nonsense .

Have I touched a nerve?

[MagicBoy]

Originally Posted by WestHam92

Could Osborne be getting better results because he's in a better car? I guess we'll never know exactly how good the drivers are in comparison to each other unless they're given equal cars (that's not something I want to see by the way!)

I'm just not convinced that a driver becomes better because they're getting decent results, rather that they've got a good car to drive. Plenty of drivers would have struggled in the MG and plenty would do better than him in the Civic.

I'm struggling to agree with your viewpoints generally. The paid driver days with multimillion budget manufacturer entries in an unsustainable arms race was 20 years ago. Since Chairman Gow returned and the NGTC rules were introduced there's been a good quality sustainable series without massive barriers to entry, and a top quality support package. It'll likely weather economic troubles, where we've seen WTCC and DTM fall over due to manufacturer withdrawals once the manufacturers marketing department pull the budget.

As for the MG ... Sutton and Cook got good results out of it.

The drivers are the drivers. You're never going to get a grid full of Sutton and Turk level talent. There's no issue with quality and they've all got the appropriate licences.

[WestHam92]

Originally Posted by MagicBoy

I'm struggling to agree with your viewpoints generally. The paid driver days with multimillion budget manufacturer entries in an unsustainable arms race was 20 years ago. Since Chairman Gow returned and the NGTC rules were introduced there's been a good quality sustainable series without massive barriers to entry, and a top quality support package. It'll likely weather economic troubles, where we've seen WTCC and DTM fall over due to manufacturer withdrawals once the manufacturers marketing department pull the budget.

As for the MG ... Sutton and Cook got good results out of it.

The drivers are the drivers. You're never going to get a grid full of Sutton and Turk level talent. There's no issue with quality and they've all got the appropriate licences.

Sutton and Cook are good drivers.

As for the question of licences, is it the case that they've "got the appropriate licences" because the threshold for the BTCC is low? (Not spewing nonsense, just asking! - I thought I'd clarify )

[RS67]

Originally Posted by MagicBoy

I'd argue they're still around, just as half of another team under a different label.

I'd argue that they are just a name and a workforce. Other than that they don't have anything to operate as a team.

[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

If they reduce the number of cars, then surely they will have a smaller budget?

Originally Posted by peebee2

I think the point is the budget per car would increase by a fair margin due to economies of scale.

Not sure I follow your thinking here peebee - economies of scale come into effect when you have more cars not less. Reducing the number of cars would increase the cost per car of operating.