[WEC] 2016 WEC Discussion

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by TF110

No reason to complain about Audi not winning, they shot themselves in the foot again. Their pit stops were slow, and it wasn't because the ACO. They took much too long on things like driver changes. And you can't fault the ACO for their own mechanical issues.

Sorry, but that isn't the case. It takes 6 seconds longer to fill the Audi than the petrol cars. That's been stated over and over again on RLM/DSC. Even if everybody did a perfect pit stop, Audi lose 36 seconds over the petrol cars.

And Audis issues did not add up to the 90 seconds or so they lost due to the FCY, again. We have Slow Zones to stop this being an issue. What we've managed to have is a safety feature which changes the race more than a safety car does, which is the opposite of the intention.

It can be said any way anyone likes, but Audi lost more time due to the rules than their own mistakes today - including the electrical issue on track.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Yeah that's a nonsense statement. WEC is far better. It's just a hissy fit because it isn't what they want, but we all knew it was coming and it should go this way too.

Still, funny that the first hint of Audi not running in 2018 and they mention America. F1 is properly getting ignored, lol.

I think he may have referred to the (old) ALMS, not the current way of things in America. What he remembered in having 'back in the days'. Probably doesn't care rats ass for IMSA procedures now.

[chernaudi]

Yeah, FCY stuff needs to be changed. If you're not gonna use the slow zones, don't mark them out like you intend to use them. I can't count how many times I saw the "SZ" placards sitting on the trackside, but it's sort of insulting that the WEC have this, but won't use it.

And as callous as it may sound, we have this because in the accident that Jules Bianchi had at Suzuka, which he ultimately died from, he committed an error in that he didn't slow down enough for a local yellow, nor slow enough for the prevailing track conditions (heavy rain and deteriorating visibility, though the FIA and FOM in that case are also culpable). It's stuff like that, and the life and limb of track workers and those in a stranded car, why local yellows need to be heeded.

I understand placing a part of the track under a speed restriction for a stranded car or one that's beached. And if the track needs extensive clean up or there's a huge accident, then use the FCY or the pace car. I think that the current way of doing things in the sprint races needs to be looked at as far as safety (which you'd usually have ensured with a slow zone) vs competitive fairness.

Same thing also goes for EOT, namely range on a tank of fuel.

[TF110]

Bogus, the FCY's help and hurt random competitors. It's not a conspiracy to stiff Audi. They're not fueling as fast? Talk to the rule makers. Who knows why they didn't do slow zones, again, take that up with the rule makers or Freitas. It's not an Audi screw job. I'd love to see the comments on when it helps Audi gain time. It works both ways. Just like was said above and I said on another thread, Audi may not be as efficient as they could be. That goes for drag and engine.

[Akrapovic]

Of course it's not a conspiracy against Audi. I don't think anyone claimed it was the ACO engineering things to keep Audi down. However it is not completely random and any car which pits first is always going to be at a disadvantage in a FCY. Since the Audi pits first, that puts it at the disadvantage. That's not a conspiracy, it's just a bad coincidence on how the FCY rules have played out.

If the best argument anyone can come up with is "nobody complains when it helps Audi" then all that does is prove the point that there is something wrong with the system. The whole point in a FCY is to minimise the impact on the race compared with a SC, but it's having the opposite effect.

As for the fueling time, I'm sure Audi ate talking to the rule makers. But every time they do that this forum gets flooded with tears who claim Audi always get everything they way....despite the obvious fuel mileage and filling advantage. You can argue that the distance on a tank is because they run the car richer and should just slow down, and that's a valid point. However the filling time is not related to that, and is a very legitimate issue.

Once again, if you look at the pure facts, Audi lost more time through the rule book than through their own mistakes. If it wasn't for the rules, they'd have won. And that isn't the first time this year either. It is not a conspiracy, it is just how it's played out and needs addressed under the EoT vision. No car should lose almost a lap due to badly formatted rules. If you're happy to see races decided by random FCY draws then BTCC would love another viewer. I prefer to see cars win on team performance, not randomisation from the rules.

[TF110]

Sorry, I can't sympathize. What happened to their refueling from last year? I thought Porsche had a magic system that gave them an advantage and it was disallowed? Now they still have an advantage (along with Toyota), is it still there or is it really the ACO's fault? Is the fact that Audi pits first by design, on the ACO's part? Or is the equivalence wrong? Or maybe it's Audi not getting the mileage from their car? Everyone is quick to say the rule makers got it wrong when Audi doesn't win. That's how I see it. No one said that when they were winning. FCY's can happen at any time, If Audi pit during them, that's their choice. They don't have to, no one forces them to. There are alternate strategies if they know they can't go further on a stint.

[Akrapovic]

They had a disadvantage last year too. They've always had the slowest fueling time. Last year Toyota was slower than Porsche due to the fancy system. That's gone and now the teams fuel at a rate defined by the EoT regulations. They literally cannot fill it faster than that, it's illegal. That is 100% down to the rules. Its made even more silly when you realise that Audi age actually putting in less fuel than the petrol cars, due to the tank size, and yet it takes longer. The artificially limited fuel rate for the Audi is significantly slower than what it should be.

As for stint length, you'll notice I haven't said that that is unfair. Somebody else did so I don't know why you've snapped that back at me, but I actually agree that Audis stint length isn't a real issue. If they want extra fuel then maybe burning less and not soaring off into a 40 second lead would've done that. But as it stands, they did. It may not be an option on a longer track like Le Mans or even Spa, but I'm sure it's something they calculate.

Whilst stint length is not a problem in itself IMO, what is is the FCYS disadvantage get anyone who pits first. Its fine to have Audi pitting earlier, or anyone pitting earlier. But it is not fine then to build a rule which will always disadvantage the cars pitting first. You say it's Audis choice to pit under yellow or not, but as we seen the Ring and COTA that's not the case. Audi pitted first because they had to on fuel (and that's fine), and then right afterwards they got screwed with a FCY and lost all of the time plus more. (And that's not fine). At that point you discourage teams from trying to perform the best and encourage gamesmanship of the rules because the FCY rules don't mesh with the EoT rules. Safety regulations should not fundamentally change a race order. And neutralising a race should neutralise it, not randomise it.

Since the entire point of the FCY/SZ rules were to stop completely destroying the races of teams that performed well, it's pretty clear that they currently are not fit for purpose and currently have an even bigger effect than a safety car would have. THAT is the issue. I don't have a particular problem with the lap less that Audi get because I believe that's part of Audis added performance. I do have a problem with equalised pit stops not being equal, and safety rules not meshing with the rest of the regulations, resulting in the win becoming more of a lottery than a genuine performance by a team.

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Whilst stint length is not a problem in itself IMO, what is is the FCYS disadvantage get anyone who pits first. Its fine to have Audi pitting earlier, or anyone pitting earlier. But it is not fine then to build a rule which will always disadvantage the cars pitting first. You say it's Audis choice to pit under yellow or not, but as we seen the Ring and COTA that's not the case. Audi pitted first because they had to on fuel (and that's fine), and then right afterwards they got screwed with a FCY and lost all of the time plus more. (And that's not fine). At that point you discourage teams from trying to perform the best and encourage gamesmanship of the rules because the FCY rules don't mesh with the EoT rules. Safety regulations should not fundamentally change a race order. And neutralising a race should neutralise it, not randomise it.

Wow, so the incident that brought out the FCY was intentionally done just the screw Audi cause they pitted?? BS, they would have won straight up if they hadn't had the car stop AND take an additional stop cause THEIR equipment wasn't up to snuff and the door wouldn't latch. As it ended with a 23 second deficit either of those would have closed that much closer if not brought them ahead. To blame the rules because Audi ends up getting caught out more often is beyond insanity. Yes, a consistent lap shorter stint should be addressed by the ACO but to claim that was the sole problem is trying to blame the ACO because you think you're so so much smarter.

And how would Audi be able to game the rules for a FCY that comes out in between their stops? 2 laps later and hey Audi is out in front and actually makes out MUCH better. Get over the obsession that the FCY screwed them because it was NOT a competition caution NASCAR style but the response to an incident. The FIA and others have tried multiple slow zone, Code 60/80, VSC and EVERY time drivers are investigated/warned/penalized for not following those rules. Should they have waited or forced Porsche to pit under green and then waved the flag?? Sometimes you get the fresh end of the stick and sometimes it's the excrement covered end.

[chernaudi]

You have to remember that the door issue was handled under FCY, so that didn't really cost them any significant time. And yes Duval stalling on track too with the electrical issues didn't help any, either.

But Audi have consistently been 1-3 laps shorter on fuel everywhere the WEC has raced since at least LM 2015, if not earlier. And that leads to the FCY issue. It's luck of the draw. The first two didn't hurt Audi since they happened when no front running car had pitted. It's those that happen in the middle of a green flag pit stop cycle that hurt Audi due to having to always pit first.

And I don't think that them trying to game the system by saving fuel will help that much. They have to be faster on track to build up enough of a lead so that their slower refueling time doesn't cost them a significant amount of time. The problem with the FCY is that if they have to pit first, Audi will need to have almost lapped both Porsches to keep the lead if a FCY happens in the middle of a pit stop sequence.

Only option that Audi can do is do what they did at COTA that no one else managed to do. And that's double stint tires wherever possible. That's an instant 15-20 second gain. But that's a problem, too. Only Fuji is the last of the three races where it's basically possible to double stint tires due to incentive. When you have 8.5 sets of tires to use between qualifying and the race, and 7 stops to make, you've obviously got no incentive to double stint tires unless you can maintain pace.

So I say this, should Porsche and Toyota get help because they can't double stint tires while Audi can? No, because it's not an issue on the car enforced by rules. Refueling flow rig rates are.

I sort of wish now that things were like they were from 1999-2003, where there was no BOP malarkey and if you wanted to beat someone, you had to outsmart them or outrun them.

I'm getting tired of repeatedly explaining this when it's obvious to anyone who doesn't have an anti-Audi bias. I'm tired of racing being decided by politics and luck, vs overall car and team performance. Porsche's wins aren't strategy, no matter how they spin it, it's luck, pure and simple.

This is as bad as a NASCAR race IMO.

[ederss7]

So the speed limit used during FCYs is the same as the speed used during pit stops? If so, maybe they should make the FCYs speed higher than the pit stops'. This would minimise the FCY issue.

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

I'm getting tired of repeatedly explaining this when it's obvious to anyone who doesn't have an anti-Audi bias. I'm tired of racing being decided by politics and luck, vs overall car and team performance. Porsche's wins aren't strategy, no matter how they spin it, it's luck, pure and simple.

This is as bad as a NASCAR race IMO.

Sorry, try again and this time without the judgmental blinders on. Not a fan of any one team but enjoy the racing, personally couldn't care any less who won but rather how the race went and then sit back and enjoy the 'my team didn't win' whining on here. Usually come back once a year to talk to a few people about Petit and think it's about time to take that break again and just enjoy the racing action as it happens and not give a single iota what's happening in off-track news.

And sorry but when EVER has luck not been a HUGE part of racing. You can't control the other guy wrecking into you, across track, when he pits or anything else. You run your race within the rules THEY PUBLISH BEFORE THE DAMN RACE, and if you get screwed you can try again or go home like the whining people on here do when they don't get their way EVERY time. Go play little league where everyone wins and nobodies feelings are ever hurt

[chernaudi]

Sorry, but that doesn't fly. This has been a problem in regards to range and refueling flow for at least over a year now, if not longer. Also, if you wanna see "little league" being administered by BOP or caution flags, look at IMSA or NASCAR. Even if the yellow comes out for a legit reason, the WEC is clearly not using all their options. Safety Zones, like at Le Mans, are much more fair than the current FCY stuff.

Even a full pace car situation is more fair. Yes, it's more time consuming and if no one pits, the leaders lose a majority of their lead, but at least positions don't get shuffled unless teams pit and those who pit before a FCY get their positions back if they don't pit when others do. And if they don't get their positions back, they at least make up most of the time lost.

Maybe you should read DSC or listend to Radio Le Mans, because they've been complaining about the refueling/fuel tank range stuff since Le Mans in 2015, and they've not been on board with how the WEC runs their FCY vs Slow Zones since Nurburgring this year. And I agree with them.

Again, getting into these political arguments and such is why I've enjoyed following motorsports and talking about it less and less, and I am about ready to take my ball and go home. I've already largely done that on one forum, and I have no regrets about it.

[TF110]

Not using slow zones has been addressed. An issue brought up is the drivers are ignoring/abusing it. If that's the case then it becomes a safety issue, not just for the competitors but the marshalls. Ruining someone's race is better than someone's health or safety. That's just a hypothesis, though.

[chernaudi]

Then enforce the slow zones and penalize those who don't. If you don't remember, the same thing happened with both SMP cars during COTA by being given 20 second stop and hold penalties for either speeding or going too slow under a FCY.

Also, the ACO don't seem to have a problem with it at LM, so why's it a problem in a sprint race?

I'm tired of seeing Porsche getting lucky wins when they didn't have the performance to win on their own merit alone. When Audi have had issues of their own making, it's on them. When they've had random issues like at Mexico that could happen to anyone, that's racing. But being stiffed by FCYs coming out after they pit and Porsche haven't, is kinda getting old.

Also, this inherently favors Porsche over Toyota, because at Mexico and COTA, Toyota's early race pace compared to Porsche gives Porsche an edge that if Toyota becomes competitive from mid-race onwards, or even slightly faster, they can't make up unless they go off strategy. In that case, like with Audi right now, is to basically double stint tires when Porsche can't. But as of now, I can't see Toyota being much easier on their tires than Porsche is.

Yet, I don't see anyone saying that Toyota aren't getting screwed by this, even though they are a bit, though to a lesser extent then Audi have been.

If Freitas wants to neutralize the field, use the pace car. I don't like seeing most of an overall or class leaders' lead evaporate, but it doesn't result in positions getting shuffled. Or use the slow zones and rigorously enforce the speed limit. Pull drivers who egregiously break the limit out of the cars for the rest of the race if need be, but show that you mean business. As I've said, the WEC doesn't have this issue at Le Mans.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

Wow, so the incident that brought out the FCY was intentionally done just the screw Audi cause they pitted?? BS, they would have won straight up if they hadn't had the car stop AND take an additional stop cause THEIR equipment wasn't up to snuff and the door wouldn't latch. As it ended with a 23 second deficit either of those would have closed that much closer if not brought them ahead. To blame the rules because Audi ends up getting caught out more often is beyond insanity. Yes, a consistent lap shorter stint should be addressed by the ACO but to claim that was the sole problem is trying to blame the ACO because you think you're so so much smarter.

And how would Audi be able to game the rules for a FCY that comes out in between their stops? 2 laps later and hey Audi is out in front and actually makes out MUCH better. Get over the obsession that the FCY screwed them because it was NOT a competition caution NASCAR style but the response to an incident. The FIA and others have tried multiple slow zone, Code 60/80, VSC and EVERY time drivers are investigated/warned/penalized for not following those rules. Should they have waited or forced Porsche to pit under green and then waved the flag?? Sometimes you get the fresh end of the stick and sometimes it's the excrement covered end.

Good lord. You actually edited the bit out of my post where I said "it's not a conspiracy", and question why I think it's a conspiracy. Seriously, read it again - it's not a conspiracy - it's just how the rules are structured. And that's what happens on the forefront of evolution, both technical and regulation wise. They need time and experience to make things work (FCY/SZs is still a new concept), and there has been an obvious flaw discovered. So that needs addressed, maybe for 2017 rather than mid season. It's not a conspiracy - it's just a problem.

Originally Posted by TF110

Not using slow zones has been addressed. An issue brought up is the drivers are ignoring/abusing it. If that's the case then it becomes a safety issue, not just for the competitors but the marshalls. Ruining someone's race is better than someone's health or safety. That's just a hypothesis, though.

Do you have a link to the slow zones not being used? Because RLM and DSC said there has been no communication on this and were questioning it as well.

And we agree on two things - the FCY DOES ruin races, however everybodies safety is by far more important than the competition. We agree on this. So why not use a Safety Car, since it causes less fuss, and is even safer than a FCY because everybody is bunched up? That is the issue - the rule is having the reverse effect because it has been implemented without thought to how it integrates with the EoT regulations.

[ederss7]

This FCY issue must be addressed as soon as possible. The advantage a car can gain is simply ridiculous. It's almost 1 minute. Audi had a lead of 35s, after the FCY the #7 was 18s behind the leader. Yes, luck is part of racing, but this is too much advantage that can be gained. If they really want to keep using this FCY procedure, at least make it applied only in the sector the incident occurred. Or be competent enough to use slow zones and make it fair and safe.

[chernaudi]

Just read on SC365 that ESM have changed tires again, going from Dunlop (Silverstone, Spa, LM) to Michelin (Nurburgring, Mexico, COTA), and back to Dunlop for the rest of the season.

I thought that under ACO regs, a team in the pro-am categories can switch tire makers only once a season (in season). However, I do think that the ACO are giving ESM a break, because they probably won't be back in the WEC after season's end.

[chernaudi]

With Rebellion going to LMP2 at the end of the season, I wonder if the ACO will even bother implementing their proposed attempt to BOP LMP1 factory vs LMP1 privateer with only one car confirmed for LMP1 privateer? The measures proposed were a 65mm vs 50mm lip in the splitter section of the front diffuser, and a 150mm vs 200mm rear diffuser exit.

I wonder if the ACO will bother now, or even ever, since there's new rules coming in for 2018.

[chernaudi]

Isn't it time for a Fuji race thread?

[J Jay]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Isn't it time for a Fuji race thread?

I'm working early today, but I'll do it when I get back if nobody else has.

You are free to make the OP yourself if you want to

[chernaudi]

WEC are planning to possibly change FCY rules and procedures, possibly before the end of this season according to Autosport.

[Akrapovic]

Fancy that, lol

[TF110]

Audi are probably the most vocal on a change. I don't know how I feel about it either way. I think the slow zones thing could be extended so they can work on track for a stranded car while not having to worry about another incident. Instead of one slow zone, make it two or something.

[Akrapovic]

They've used extended slow zones before. It'll be zone SZ14-SZ15, deceleration zone. SZ15-SZ17, 60Kmh. That way if the incident is near the start of SZ17, you don't have cars decelerating right before the incident.

For whatever reason, since Le Mans we haven't seen one single slow zone in use. Great tool, not being used.

[PorscheFanNo1]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

They've used extended slow zones before. It'll be zone SZ14-SZ15, deceleration zone. SZ15-SZ17, 60Kmh. That way if the incident is near the start of SZ17, you don't have cars decelerating right before the incident.

For whatever reason, since Le Mans we haven't seen one single slow zone in use. Great tool, not being used.

Probably has something to do with this, I'm guessing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E4ygNHOqVQc

Also, a recent problem with FCY has been that when its activated, not all drivers slow down right away. They are drivers, they take every chance they get for that small advantage. Until no-one gets cought out they will keep trying to slow down later and later and get that extra tenths out of it. With slow zones you have the same problem, but instead of just one slowing down phase, you have several, one every lap. In order for slow zone to work, they really have to check that every driver is at the speed limit when entering the zone, the same way pit entry speed limit. Overstep it by 1km/h at the entry and you should have a trip through the pitlane.