Which engine in the Banana Joe #30?

[noise boy 2]

Originally posted by vwpilot
I think the Yates and the Elan are more differnet than you think. This is a quote that I saw from a R&S employee regarding the engines.



And this was what I always thought, the Yates is an OHC engine while the Elan is a pushrod engine. Big difference.

And just to clarify, both of these were obtained from another discussion forum. I just dont want to give the impression that I have some exclusive info or connection to R&S.

not that I am looking for an argument, but the what that seems to be saying is that they used a different intake and fuel management system, not that the engine was different in and of itself. As I said, all of these engines are based on the same architecture, just the how it is assembled and the cam specs and such change, I don't believe that swapping the OHC modular ford engine and a windsor pushrod engine would be easy or practical. I know that yates is a big proponent of the modular engine and fuel injection in NASCAR but I am nearly positive that all of the engines in the ALMS that are (or based on) ford engines are the pushrod ones. Robert

[paul-collins]

Robert -

The Panoz GT is supposed to be using the modular. I think you're right about the protos, though.

[vwpilot]

I'll try to clear some stuff up. First off the forum that I got the info from was over on Daily Sports Car, so you can all go read it if you want and figure it out.

I am personally NOT any kind of expert on the R&S nor its engines. I read this post and read the other post. From what it sounded like he was saying, the Intersport car went back to the Elan from the OHC Yates engine. Upon re reading the quotes, he may have meant that the 99 Yates engine was the OHC engine.

I am now out of my league for info on that engine. It might have been back to a pushrod, Yates engine when the car was sold.

In any case I think its clear that the Intersport car has gone back to an Elan engine, no Yates, pushrod or not.

Maybe someone can ask over on that forum for a more clear explanation. Actually I probably will now.

I hope that I have not caused too much confusion and I apologize if I have. I'll see if it can be clarified more.

[Tim Northcutt]

You're not creating confusion at all...

Our info might have been someone's assumption in those older Ford/Lincoln threads, but we understood the Yates engine raced in 2003 in the matthews car to derived from the pushrod Ford...

In other elements of that discussion, we also learned that the 5.4 L OHC physically is a very large block -- almost as big as the old 429 -- and might not be practical for prototypes due to its size...

The 4.6 L seemed to be the right size, but no one knew if it had th room to be bored out to 6.0L, or if anyone had ever done so....

Maybe we ought to just e-mail Yates and see if we get an answer if we can't find out through your query on the other forum...

[Graham Goodwin]

I think we've got thte definitive answer now both here and on dsc's forum - Confusing times for R&S followers - Lets hope the Intersport era brings some much needed stability and investment for what is still a very promising car.

[vwpilot]

Ok guys, here is the definitive answer on what was in the Matthews car. I was mistaken about interpreting what was said earlier. I aplogize for any misunderstanding, but hope this clears it up.

Right now we can say though that the Intersport car is running the Elan, but this is what the R&S employee said about what was in the JMR car.

The engine run in 2003 was a pushrod Ford 6.0L V8 built by Yates. Essentially the same as the Elan engine but with different intake/injection, engine mangement and ignition systems. It was completely done by Yates and owes little to the work they did years ago on the Panoz engines. The engines we ran had a completely different intake arrangement at Sebring than they did at Le Mans.

Speaking of the Panoz engines from '99 and Yates, I believe these engines were developed by Zytek, they had Zytek intake/throttle arrangements and Zytek engine management just like the current Elan units. I think Yates was hired to work only on the internals.

I mentioned the Ford Modular (OHC) engine only because someone else posted about it earlier. This Yates developed version is only for a DP. That engine is so big I don't think it would fit in a Mk3C.

[Tim Northcutt]

Thanks, vwpilot....

That was what we found out after asking a lot of questions at a lot of different sources, but I'm glad that you have confirmed that for us....

Because of the Yates involvement with Panoz in 1999, and the racing version of the OHC engine they have done for the DPs, as well as the pushrod engine for the Matthews car this year, it is kinda tough to keep straight which engine is being used and by whom...

My Own Thoughts:

I can see why, to an extent, why Intersport chose a proven commodity that has had a few years of development and refinement, like the Elan engine, for the R&S chassis....engine development can be a painful and expensive process....

However, the Yates engine showed a great deal of potential at Le Mans...with additional testing and racing and refinement, it could become a superb sportscar engine....it has run in only two races thus far...reliability develops over time through testing, trial and error, and making the needed changes to get both optimal performance and reliability....

The Yates engine apparently will not get that opportunity to show what it is ultimately capable of achieveing...

Sticking with an Elan or a Judd engine, in my mind, will not necessarily give you an "edge" or take your program to the top level you need to reach to be competitive with the frontrunners and to challenge for the overal wins in races....

This view is why I started earlier threads about the Ford engines and options, the builders who are creating the racing versions of them, and even a thread on "Other Engines for prototypes" that should be considered....all of those threads generated considerable discussion and many options and ideas were presented, which tells me that others share (at least in part) my opinion as stated above....

I hope that the Yates engine that powered the Matthews car this year does not end up on a shelf and become another one of those "where are they Now?" items in the world of sportscar racing....

Some team that wants to reach the next level should take a flyer on that engine and develop a working agreement with Yates to see how far it will take them....they can always go bact to the Elan if it doesn't work out...

Your thoughts??????

[paul-collins]

Originally posted by Tim Northcutt
I can see why, to an extent, why Intersport chose a proven commodity that has had a few years of development and refinement, like the Elan engine, for the R&S chassis....engine development can be a painful and expensive process....

<snip>

Sticking with an Elan or a Judd engine, in my mind, will not necessarily give you an "edge" or take your program to the top level you need to reach to be competitive with the frontrunners and to challenge for the overal wins in races....

Tim, this is very close to the philosophy being used by Intersport.

When I asked Jon about the deal at Mosport, he sort of shrugged and said "it's Clint's project."

Jon is focused on running the EXG257, and going for the LMP675 championship. Heck, he may be thinking that if he can win at PLM he'll attend Le Mans again with the car, for all I know. He is not focused on running next year, yet. (And if he were, and was thinking about the R&S, you'd expect him to be at least considering the Yates for the last few races this year before switching, right?)

Anyway, Clint's out there, having fun, learning racecraft, and for him to learn that he has to last the full race. So "proven" is a worthy commodity in a racing package. Picture Chris Dyson a few years ago...

[noise boy 2]

As far as the Elan engines go, that is the same unit that is in the LMP01, and I have yet to hear anybody from panoz say that they wish that it was more powerful. Robert

[Tim Northcutt]

Points very well-made, and well-taken, paul-collins....

Clint is a "work in progress" as he develops his skills and matures as a driver (one with a good amount of potential I might add), and Jon certainly does not need the distractions associated with sorting the gremlins out of another "work in progress" in the LMP 900 engine department when his total focus must be to win the season championship in his class....

Once PLM has passed, maybe they can take a second look at exactly where they plan to go and how far they want to go with their entire program....

On ANother Note:

If you're surfing, Mr. Lewis, does having Robert Yates power in YOUR R&S sound intriguing????

There were plenty of horses under the hood of the Matthews car at le Mans!!!!!

[skycafe]

The Elan's in the Panoz were pretty awesome as well. Could it be they went to Elan to find a cheaper 'shared' development cost, and probably some trackside engineering at the ALMS rounds, as I believe that Elan personnel tend to the engine bays of the Panoz cars?

[noise boy 2]

Seems very likely, elan is one of Panoz's many motorsports interests, they also build the rafanelli ferrari v-12s. Robert