[WEC] Toyota LMP1 Discussion

[chernaudi]

This may indeed be their best chance since 2014 or 1999 to win LM overall. But Toyota have also proven to be far from bullet proof in the first two WEC sprint rounds, too. The cut tire blunder and inconsistent pace performance at Silverstone and the engine failures at Spa could also happen to them at LM, especially the engine issues if they don't know what caused them or they can't come up with a fix by race week.

Porsche's main issue is with the hybrid system, which the easy fix is reverting back to using the 2015 spec parts. I'll cost some performance, but that's better than having to park their cars or have them hobbled/limping on mostly ICE power.

Audi have had issues with the MGU, and I don't know how easy a fix that'll be, though them going though Spa qualifying and the race is encouraging from that POV, though they're still testing and introducing upgrades to resolve the issues as much as they can before LM and to boost performance.

Right now, no one really has the upper hand, and we won't get any indications on pace until the LM test weekend. But Le Mans is almost always won by the fastest car that has the least amount of problems.

[TF110]

If you just read any of the articles above, they blame the Eua Rouge compression on the engine issue. LM is flat, so that shouldn't be an issue. 45% efficiency or 40%? The TS040 was at 40, so it should be more.

[GasperG]

Just some words google translated from those two articles:
- employs a silicon carbide
- reduced-cylinder control
- ERS-H ... that in the future is taken into consideration
- Toyota relationship manufacturers ... lithium-ion battery that was developed together
- Speaking or why broken of at the spa, it was bounced to the wall of the spa of Eau Rouge
- With regard to life and put a measure of the life of the engine to 10,000 km, we believe that it also applies to the battery.
- "we want to do the ultimate power train development." The goal is that it is "thermal power plant". (61% thermal efficiency)

[GasperG]

...

[chernaudi]

I don't think that an engine sensor issue and a piston or turbo failure (and I'm pretty sure that the TMG mechanics can change a turbo) are both related to loadings and shocks through Eau Rouge. LM may be flat, but it's still a 24 hour race, and Toyota having essentially a double DNF in the last sprint race before LM isn't a great sign. Also, the Porsche Curves are one of the fastest set of corners that the LMP1 cars will encounter all season.

If side to side (lateral) loadings had something to do with engine issue on the 6, it could still be problem possibly not resolved by the LM race week unless Toyota figure out what went wrong, and, just as importantly, a fix for it.

And I still don't think that Toyota have at least publicized what happened with the 5, as that seemed to be a different issue altogether.

[TF110]

Is Murata saying they currently use the silicon carbide semi conductor? Or is that for their future lmp1?

[Japanese Samurai]

Originally Posted by TF110

Is Murata saying they currently use the silicon carbide semi conductor? Or is that for their future lmp1?

The article says that TS050 uses Si-C front motor.

[TF110]

Nice!! I remember speculating about Toyota using it on the TS050 last couple of years. Interesting to hear of the type of cylinder deactivation. That's something else I thought of for future rules to allow. Seems it could benefit lmp1 for fuel saving.

[carbon_titanium]

interesting pic; anyway since 2012, the toyota power train has the rear electric engine connected to transmission/driveshaft. It's a trademark of the car, but a bit risky in my opinion; if audi and porsche hybrid fails they can simply switch off and the car will keep on running, a lot slower, but running. If toyota rear electric engine fails, the car very likely will retire. It almost never happened, but le mans 2012 and spa 2013 if am I not wrong.

[roderick]

Originally Posted by carbon_titanium

interesting pic; anyway since 2012, the toyota power train has the rear electric engine connected to transmission/driveshaft. It's a trademark of the car, but a bit risky in my opinion; if audi and porsche hybrid fails they can simply switch off and the car will keep on running, a lot slower, but running. If toyota rear electric engine fails, the car very likely will retire. It almost never happened, but le mans 2012 and spa 2013 if am I not wrong.

Toyota can come back to pit with just front motor, or if rear motor isnt damaged, it can run on engine +Fr motor.
it's well thought out I think

[carbon_titanium]

Originally Posted by roderick

Toyota can come back to pit with just front motor, or if rear motor isnt damaged, it can run on engine +Fr motor.
it's well thought out I think

As said, rear electric engine deploys torque directly to the same driveshaft used to connect ICE; more or less as F1 cars do; beyond that, the rear electric engine is connected to rear electronic brake system too! it's a very complex system... if just one part doesn't work, the whole package doesn't work.
That's why I think that with a comparable power output and most of all, power density, audi and porsche layout is a better choice... same power, less potentially fatal reliability fails.

[cokata]

At Le mans where they are limited to 300kw of deployment i would expect them to use only the front motor (if it's 300kw or more) for deployment and use the rear only for recovery during breaking. The ICE will saturate the traction available from the rear tires, and it's more efficient to use one motor at full or close to full capacity than to spread the load to 2 motors.

[TF110]

According to rumor on E-I's threads, Toyota was using 'only' 300kw at Spa.

[roderick]

What makes Toyota's system best compared with Audi and Porsche is that we have 4wd EV which makes better drive-ability (Traction control as well as instant acceleration, deceleration with regen).

Yes, the failure potential is higher for more components but at the same time, whatever fails, we are the only LMP1 car that get to pit without engine...also, Rear MG does not need to be active in order to have just an engine running. (you can spin the motor with an engine and just drive)

I believe everyone has good system for their own strategy.

[Deleted]

The low-DF-LM-kit at Spa test

[cokata]

Wow, still no dive planes on that thing. If they stick with this config for Le Mans, judging by the speeds they did at Paul Riccard we may see them do a top speed record for the current La Sarthe config with the chicanes.

[carbon_titanium]

yeah, but don't know how much usefull could it be hit 360km/h on mulsanne straight if the price to pay is to be slower than lmp2 in porsche sector...
Anthony Davidson revealed that their LM package can be used only at le mans because of lack of downforce.
Anyway, don't know if this LM package received some updates since march tests, but at paul ricard audi and porsche scored better laptimes in HD packages.

Ok, new tub, new engine, new car bla bla bla, but why toyota never had a serious focus on aero as audi and porsche do?

[Deleted]

If they had three cars they could divide the two main cars to have this ultra-low-DF, while gambling the third car to go for the interim spec used before. Of course, this also would apply to Audi and Porsche had they retained the third cars. With only two bullets in the gun each it's too much of a gamble

[sssssssss]

Originally Posted by cokata

Wow, still no dive planes on that thing. If they stick with this config for Le Mans, judging by the speeds they did at Paul Riccard we may see them do a top speed record for the current La Sarthe config with the chicanes.

i expect audi to still be the fastest at the end of the straights. their car this year was consistently faster on all tracks in terms of top speed than their last year's car, which was already the fastest at the end of the straights by a significant margin compared to porsche and toyota. and now 329 km/h in 5th gear at spa was absolutely insane.

[cokata]

If we compare the speeds last year, what we saw in the Prologue and what everyone did with their LM kit at Spa 2015 and this year i think we can conclude that Audi and Porsche will top out around the same sort of speeds they did the previous year
Audi ~340kph; Porsche ~335kph. This ultra trimmed out kit that Toyota have will go above 350 quite easily i think, and that will be a massive advantage in S2. They would loose a lot of time in S1 and the end of S3, but it should be very interesting. I really hope they stick with it as it will make the race a whole lot more thrilling if not all the P1s run 95% equal Drag/Downforce set ups.

[TF110]

I think Anthony was exaggerating about sliding out of turns if they used this car at Spa's race. If that were the case, why would they go test it at Spa?

Not sure I get what you're saying Carbon Titanium. The car's aero is redone, so how is that not a serious focus on it like Porsche or Audi? Some of the current underbody aero trends were started by Toyota in 2014. You saw at Spa the car was topping out at around 300-305kmh and only when they boosted were they going faster. That won't cut it at LM.

Japanese Samurai posted earlier in this thread that more than 80% of the resources were put towards the LM spec package. Audi do have a god top speed, but they were running the LM aero at Spa, and boosted to stay ahead of the Toyota when they hit 328kmh. Last year they had only 4mj, so in theory, they had a lot more engine power than anyone else, not to mention it's a diesel!

[cokata]

yes the Audi reached that speed at Spa because it boosted. On ICE power alone Audi were doing ~310kph (a little better than what they were doing in 2015, but in 2015 they did not boost coming out of Eau Rouge, this year they did). Toyota were doing 300 on ICE power.

[TF110]

That's not much difference considering the aero packages they ran. Toyota was much better on braking as well. I know you can say tires were part of that equation, but it doesn't make up for top speed. It will be really close this year!

[sssssssss]

Originally Posted by cokata

If we compare the speeds last year, what we saw in the Prologue and what everyone did with their LM kit at Spa 2015 and this year i think we can conclude that Audi and Porsche will top out around the same sort of speeds they did the previous year
Audi ~340kph; Porsche ~335kph. This ultra trimmed out kit that Toyota have will go above 350 quite easily i think, and that will be a massive advantage in S2. They would loose a lot of time in S1 and the end of S3, but it should be very interesting. I really hope they stick with it as it will make the race a whole lot more thrilling if not all the P1s run 95% equal Drag/Downforce set ups.

audi were easily hitting 345 km/h with no traffic ahead last year and were constantly doing over 350 km/h when there was traffic ahead (slipstream and/or boost), i remember that from the onboard telemetry on their live stream. i recall seeing 354 km/h at least once and i'm far from watching the whole race on their live stream, they almost surely went even faster than that. which mattered quite a lot, because they were able to pass porsche at the end of the straights, although losing a lot of speed at the beginning (which won't happen this year, at least to that extent). i expect them to be at least as good on top end speed this year too, with the radical aero and 6MJ.

[carbon_titanium]

even at le mans, achieve the best top speed means everything but nothing... in 2011, 908 was able to pass easily 340km/h, R18 barely could hit 330km/h but because of more downforce, audi's were faster in porsche sector and have been the fastest cars all the week-end long.
In 2012, ts030 was able to hit 330km/h, R18 e-tron struggled to get close to 320km/h... result? both R18 e-tron were faster than ts030 because of better aero.
That's what I mean. Is useless to project a car with an insane top speed and not much more... a lightning through the mulsanne straight and a turtle in porsche sector... not the best deal to me.

BTW also audi and porsche will be able to pass 340km/h on straight without draft, toyota maybe will get a better top speed and because of lower drag, will be able to keep for a while that speed also when the hybrid boost will finish.

And no, toyota definitively hasn't the same aero focus of rivals. Audi and Porsche will use 3 different bodyworks for the season; very likely toyota aero concept is this:

TS050 + diveplanes and more loaded rear wing = HD package
TS050 - diveplanes and lower rear wing = LD package