"Super production"?

[andy97]

Just out of interest, & in general terms, what were/are the regs for "Super Production" series? I am aware of Group A, & Group N, Super Tourers & Super 2000, I have even heard of cars that are "Group N+" but I am not sure what "Super Production" regs allowed. Any ideas?

[redshoes]

FIA Regs Section J Article 261

Group N+ was the unofficial version prior to Super Production being adopted by the FIA. As the name suggests it's like Group N but with a little more freedom in some areas.

[andy97]

Many thanks, that's very useful.

[Sodemo]

Stop me if I am wrong here, but didn't the ETCC start off as a super production based championship?

I seem to recall BMW moaning about the update kits for S2000 costing them lots of money in / around 2001/2002...?

[Pettersson]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

Stop me if I am wrong here, but didn't the ETCC start off as a super production based championship?

I seem to recall BMW moaning about the update kits for S2000 costing them lots of money in / around 2001/2002...?

Both yes and no. ETCC started as Euro STC (a merge with the Italian Super Toruing series and the rest of what was left in central Europe) in 2000. In 2001 it became ETCC (divided into two separate classes, ST (super touring) and SP (super production) and was a part of Eurosports "Super Racing Weekend" concept (together with FIA GT and Formula Renault, still remember Augusto Farfus's fantastic season in Formula Renault 2001). STC was 2 sprint races while SPC was only one longer race. I specifically remember the fights between Duncan Huisman and Peter Kox in their BMW's in Euro SPC, they were really fighting each other all the way. I have a few races on VHS, good fun to watch even today.

[andy97]

Was the UK's "National Saloon Car Cup" of the late 1990s to "Super Production" regs or Group N? I think the runners in this eventally became a (short lived) Class B in BTCC.

[Pettersson]

Originally Posted by andy97

Was the UK's "National Saloon Car Cup" of the late 1990s to "Super Production" regs or Group N? I think the runners in this eventally became a (short lived) Class B in BTCC.

That was group N. Super production started from about 1998. I remember BMW developing a car fot the German DTC (group N with a little twist) for 1998. I got the impression that this German regulation became the starting point of super production, together with Belgium and the Netherlands. Super production was mostly used in central Europe at that time, and later spread to Russia etc. when Super 2000 was born. Denmark also ran a super production based championship for a long while, but with a national twist allowing aero packages similar to Super 2000 etc.

The British National Saloons was a nice series, remember when it was broadcasted on Screensport and Eurosport. But those cars were even more production based and show-room style than super production. BTW, if someone has info on how that class died, feel free to let us know. My impression is that allowing super production in BTCC 2000 pretty much did it, together with a decreased grid the previous year?

BTW #2, is the Sportmaxx series (or whatever it's called) like the British National Saloon cars back in the 90's?

[andy97]

Originally Posted by Pettersson

That was group N. Super production started from about 1998. I remember BMW developing a car fot the German DTC (group N with a little twist) for 1998. I got the impression that this German regulation became the starting point of super production, together with Belgium and the Netherlands. Super production was mostly used in central Europe at that time, and later spread to Russia etc. when Super 2000 was born. Denmark also ran a super production based championship for a long while, but with a national twist allowing aero packages similar to Super 2000 etc.

The British National Saloons was a nice series, remember when it was broadcasted on Screensport and Eurosport. But those cars were even more production based and show-room style than super production. BTW, if someone has info on how that class died, feel free to let us know. My impression is that allowing super production in BTCC 2000 pretty much did it, together with a decreased grid the previous year?

BTW #2, is the Sportmaxx series (or whatever it's called) like the British National Saloon cars back in the 90's?

I think we might be confusing things - the National Saloons series was a different (and slightly earlier, I think - Group N Sierra Cosworths & the like, & with ifferent classes) series to the National Saloon Car Cup (late 1990s & only one class, I think). There was a gap of a few years between National Saloons & the National Saloon Car Cup. The National Saloon Car Cup ran as a stand alone series for a while but is what became Class B of BTCC in 2000.

To explain why I am interested, the car in my Avatar (my car) ran in the UKs National Saloon Car Cup (alongside Honda Integras, Peugeot 306 etc) but was actually built in New Zealand to their "Schedule S" regs. As I understand it, "Schedule S" was a sort of local Goup N+ series. Hence I have considered my car to be Group N+ & therefore akin to "Super Production", or maybe more acurately, as a forerunner to what became "Super Production".

I don't think the Dunlop Sport Maxx Cup is "Super Production" but is similar to the National Saloons of th early 90s.

[Tim Wilkinson]

The NSCC was a kind of N+. I think the NSCC came about as a single-class championship as the previous Group N (Esso in the early 90s) had become 3 or 4 one make championships running at the same time ie you had to have a Civic or EsCos or M3 to win your class.

From what I know of the Astras that ran in the NSCC, and the super-production 306s, engine regs weren't too far apart, if at all. There was more engine work allowed than just blue-printing; I think a single throttle body was used, and cams were limited in lift. The best 2l engines still produced upwards of 220bhp, though.

For one year the NSCC and Group B BTCC both ran, then the NSCC got absorbed into class B, then that died. A shame, as it's took away a non-one make feeder into BTCC - a bit of variety that we don't see at that level anymore.

[redshoes]

The single class National Saloon Cup started in 1997 using Group N-and-a-bit rules. Around the same time German DTC and Belgium Procar series were running similar series. New Zealand's Schedule S was just another variation of the enhanced Group N idea.

There's some differences in the fine print details but essentially DTC/Procar formed the basis for Group N+ which eventually morphed into Super Production.

Similar story to early 90s BTCC rules which became Class 2 and then Super Touring. Some of the details changed along the way but the basics remained the same.

[Sodemo]

So in the ETCC at least, did the Super Production class eventually mutate into the S2000 class we have now?

[Craner Curves]

More or less. BMW pushed for S2000 because they could sell kits to convert their 320i SP cars into S2000 machines.

[Pettersson]

Originally Posted by andy97

I think we might be confusing things - the National Saloons series was a different (and slightly earlier, I think - Group N Sierra Cosworths & the like, & with ifferent classes) series to the National Saloon Car Cup (late 1990s & only one class, I think). There was a gap of a few years between National Saloons & the National Saloon Car Cup. The National Saloon Car Cup ran as a stand alone series for a while but is what became Class B of BTCC in 2000.

.....

I don't think the Dunlop Sport Maxx Cup is "Super Production" but is similar to the National Saloons of th early 90s.

And we continue to confuse each other, I believe. I did not know that National Saloons and National Saloon Car Cup were two different series that you need to separate, as they both sound alike and the cars are built on the same idea. And add the different title sponsors (ESSO etc.), the confuse is total for a non-British.

When I meant about BTCC Class B was that it then came from the late 90's National saloons (where we saw Middlehurst in the Primera, Abbot in the SAAB 900/9-3 etc.). And all these national variations (DTC, Procar, the Asian series etc.) made FIA (or who?) to create the super production class so they formed some kind of "union".

And as already mentioned, SP was developed further by BMW, Alfa Romeo and Volvo for the 2002 season, but that's another story. As I also said, Sport Maxx is not SP but more like National saloons, but when you say there were two of those I don't know which one is more similar.

What year is that Toyota built? Around 1995-96 or earlier?

[NaBUru38]

This sounds similar to Argentine Turismo Nacional (www.apat.org.ar). They have two classes numbered 2 and 3 for B-segment (Corsa, Fiesta, Clio, 206, Gol) and C-segment (Astra, Focus, Civic, C4) touring cars. Their tagline is "your car also races", since the cars not only are very stock, they also look more stock than TC2000s.

[andy97]

Originally Posted by Pettersson

And we continue to confuse each other, I believe. I did not know that National Saloons and National Saloon Car Cup were two different series that you need to separate, as they both sound alike and the cars are built on the same idea. And add the different title sponsors (ESSO etc.), the confuse is total for a non-British.

When I meant about BTCC Class B was that it then came from the late 90's National saloons (where we saw Middlehurst in the Primera, Abbot in the SAAB 900/9-3 etc.). And all these national variations (DTC, Procar, the Asian series etc.) made FIA (or who?) to create the super production class so they formed some kind of "union".

And as already mentioned, SP was developed further by BMW, Alfa Romeo and Volvo for the 2002 season, but that's another story. As I also said, Sport Maxx is not SP but more like National saloons, but when you say there were two of those I don't know which one is more similar.

What year is that Toyota built? Around 1995-96 or earlier?

Sorry for the confusion! The National Saloon Car Cup was a similar idea to the earlier National Saloons but on a one class basis. It ran as a stand alone series for a couple of years in the late 1990s & then became Class B of BTCC in 2000 (I think) for a short time.

My Carina was built in 1994 in NZ & ran in their "Schedule S" series as a Castrol sponsored works car for a couple of years before being imported to the UK to run in the National Saloon Car Cup from 1997 onwards.

[Tim Wilkinson]

The early 90s (originally Esso) version was Group N, and took over from one of the UKs Production Saloon championships (yes, there was more than one!).

SportMaxx is similar to this or the Prodsaloon ethic, atlhough ISTR it's based on power to weight rather than engine size.

[Craner Curves]

It became the NSCC in 1993 I think? Going by magazines I have from that time, previewing the season with the introduction of the Escort Cosworths and works cars like the Honda Junior Team which gave James Thompson his big break, along with entries from Nissan and Rover.

[S14GJC]

Andy 97,

I raced in the National Saloon Chmapionship run by the BRDC from 1996 to 1999 and raced against your car too! The series started off from the word go as Group N+ regs which were also the as the FIA ones which they called Super Production but you could take a car straight out the British series into Europe only changing the tyres!

The championship started off being called Dunlop National Saloon Car Championship from 1996 & 1997 during these years it incorporated the BARC Modified Saloon Car Championship in 98' these were dropped and became only for Group N+ cars. Then 98' was called Dunlop National Saloon Car Cup in 1998 before changing the name to the Silverstone Insurance National Saloon Car Cup. All the changes were title only regs stayed the same apart from little detail changes.

The cars are/were very technical with no rubber bushes in the suspension, seem weld the body, you could change the mounting points of the suspension by 20mm, which is used to this day in S2000 rules! The cars are not far off what they use today, obviously engines punch more power and gearboxes more technical, bigger arches etc. I had my Honda Integra shell prepared complete by FosseTech who at the time had the contract to do all the ETCC Honda Accord's, it was a work of art!

The regs should be used to set up the championship again as there are loads of cars out there a yours that could race and the racing was brilliant! For cars running on 15" slicks they were much quicker than most cars with nearly twice the horsepower.

If I can find the regs and dig them out I'l llet you know.

[andy97]

That's great info thanks.

There's a couple of Hondas that race in the same class as me in CSCC Tin Tops that were also in the National Saloon Car Cup - an 1800cc Civic Saloon & an Accord. I know that the Accord later ran in Class 2 of the BTCC.

[andy97]

Originally Posted by S14GJC

Andy 97, I raced in the National Saloon Chmapionship run by the BRDC from 1996 to 1999 and raced against your car too! The series started off from the word go as Group N+ regs which were also the as the FIA ones which they called Super Production but you could take a car straight out the British series into Europe only changing the tyres! .

S14GJC, which car did you run in? I have a bunch of results from some of the years that "my" car ran in.

Originally Posted by S14GJC

The championship started off being called Dunlop National Saloon Car Championship from 1996 & 1997 during these years it incorporated the BARC Modified Saloon Car Championship in 98' these were dropped and became only for Group N+ cars. Then 98' was called Dunlop National Saloon Car Cup in 1998 before changing the name to the Silverstone Insurance National Saloon Car Cup. All the changes were title only regs stayed the same apart from little detail changes.

The cars are/were very technical with no rubber bushes in the suspension, seem weld the body, you could change the mounting points of the suspension by 20mm, which is used to this day in S2000 rules! The cars are not far off what they use today, obviously engines punch more power and gearboxes more technical, bigger arches etc. I had my Honda Integra shell prepared complete by FosseTech who at the time had the contract to do all the ETCC Honda Accord's, it was a work of art!.

My shell is a work of art, too. Toyota NZ spent a fortune on it and Dave Cook Racing Services did the design work & supervisied the build, I believe. Great value cars second hand, now though. I saw a Super Production Alfa 156 for sale recently for about £8K.

Originally Posted by S14GJC

The regs should be used to set up the championship again as there are loads of cars out there a yours that could race and the racing was brilliant! For cars running on 15" slicks they were much quicker than most cars with nearly twice the horsepower.

If I can find the regs and dig them out I'l llet you know.

Perhaps, someone should consider a "classic"/"historic" Super Production Championship at some time, even if its only as a Class B to a Super Tourer series. Probably a bit early yet, though!

[Sodemo]

I think such a series could run in its own championship.

Admittedly there could be some resistance to joining say the BTCC again after what happened after 2001-2003, but I guess it would be the most logical step, though I have no idea about costs involved etc, but I would imagine they could be quite high?

I would like to see more actual saloon supports on the BTCC bill though, I think some of the supports are quite weak now.

[Tracsmart]

S14GJC, which car did you run in? I have a bunch of results from some of the years that "my" car ran in.

Car number 21 Honda Integra.

[Tim Wilkinson]

Having a trawl through the 'net, and some old mags. Was it known as "Saloon 2000" in the early days? Or was that something else?

For how long it ran, and the number of cars used, there's precious few I have seen come up for sale. Where are all the Integras, for example? I know where two Astras are / went and someone knows where most of the BTCC class B 306s are, but that's about it apart from people on here with them.

[alfaracer156]

Hi I have one of the GA Motorsport Alfa 156s. I used it in Britcar for a while.Will try to get it out in the Tintops soon. Mike