F1 oval race?

[timo]

Why can't we see F1 cars racing in ovals (Indy for ex.)
2 hrs cars running side by side, MH-TGF-JV-HHF passing each other twice in the same lap......
Why not? Hein...

[KC]

Gerhard Berger commented on this about 5 years ago and said that the modern F1 engine could not maintain 100% revs for more than about 20 to 30 seconds without some sort of relief. Another factor is that most European racers consider oval racing as beneath them and not worthy of their massive skills, just before they go out and cannot make a pass on a Minardi.

[Orange]

More importantly, where is oval racing in the F1 tradition?? If you really want to see open wheel cars drone around an oval, there's a great little series called CART....

[Valentinik]

i understood that there was a gentlemans agreement between CART and Bernie not to tread on each others toes, hence CART and F1 never race on the same tracks, and all the new overseas CART races are on ovals. Chances of F1 on an oval, nil.

Personally if they are going to race other than on presently used cicuits why not a hillclimb round?

[Katherine]

Where's the challenge in a circuit layout that's just 'Go down straight. Turn Left. Go down next straight. Turn Left. Repeat 78 times.'

Where's the entertainment value in that? I can't imagine anything more dull and boring. I'd be asleep within the first ten laps! Gimme Spa-Francorchamps any day of the week!

[SL]

Even the thought of two cars side by side must have Bernie shooting his bolt (Sorry UK gag there). F1 would soon have chicanes and speed limits added. TGF, MH & Chin would get all giddey and before you know it Prost or Minardi would win as they are used to going around and around in circles

Also please, you must respect the soon to be introduced F1 rule about no overtaking.

SL

[White Van Man]

Originally posted by Katherine
Where's the challenge in a circuit layout that's just 'Go down straight. Turn Left. Go down next straight. Turn Left. Repeat 78 times.'

Where's the entertainment value in that? I can't imagine anything more dull and boring. I'd be asleep within the first ten laps! Gimme Spa-Francorchamps any day of the week!

hmmm... tootle down to Rockingham next year, then pop along to Silverstone for the GP... then come back here and tell us again what you think is dull and boring...

[Jeanburrasca81]

Oh my God!!!
F-1 on an oval track...that's blasphemic. Apart from the fact that overtaking in F-1 seems impossible without braking into corners (well, obviously not always) the only thought of oval tracks in F-1 is a nightmare for me!

[Katherine]

Originally posted by White Van Man
hmmm... tootle down to Rockingham next year, then pop along to Silverstone for the GP... then come back here and tell us again what you think is dull and boring... [/B]

Wish I could, but seeing as I'm an impoverished pauper currently in receipt of Jobseeker's Allowance, it simply isn't possible. If I could afford to, I would. I don't drive either, and both Silverstone and Rockingham are nowhere near a railway station.

[SL]

Kath,

Don't dispair, stick around. I'm sure that one or more 10/10 member will be passing close to your home with a vacant seat or two.

Plead for lift closer to event.

Simon

[enzo]

F1 on ovals would be a joke !

As currently constructed, an F1 car would't stand up to the rigors of running flat out on an oval, never mind ever crashing on one. The tubs and suspension are nowhere near strong enough to take the loads.

For some strange reason, only those drivers who haven't driven an oval, especially a mile oval like Milwaukee or Phoenix, seem to think it must be easy and boring. Those who HAVE done it found that it really tested them mentally and physically.

A few quotes from ex-F1 boys that DID try it:

Blundell, after his first morning test at Phoenix when he secluded himself for an hour at lunch time: " I had to get away from everyone to really think about this, if I was really cut out for doing this - this is some damned serious stuff. Nothing in F1 prepared me for this."

Cheever, after his oval introduction at Phoenix : "They're on the radio asking me about the car's balance - I'm doing Mach 3, 6 inches away from a damned wall! How the hell am I supposed to know what it's doing ? I'm scared sh!tless !"

Cheever again, after his first testing at Indy: "It's like turning left into a closet. You turn into turn 1 at 240 mph - I couldn't do it, my right foot wouldn't obey my mind - it kept backing off the throttle. I finally had to put my left foot on top of my right to keep it there."

Piquet on Indy: "Nothing in F1 prepares you for this, there isn't a single turn in F1 anything like this. Damn, that's fast!"

Senna, after first trying Emmo's car on the road course at Firebird, and then watching Him test at Phoenix, where he declined a trial run: " I'd really have to think about it, and probably watch for another day - just going out cold and running would be a big mistake, a good way to get hurt. It looks like a very serious dicipline of it's own."

Mansell on Indy : "This place demands one thing : RESPECT. " There is no room for error, none at all"

Or after his crash at Phoenix that put him out of contention for that weekend : " I got too greedy. I forgot that I'm just a rookie here. I've got a lot to learn yet."

Or after his incredible duel with Tracy at NHIS : " I've driven against the best drivers in the world, on the most famous track in the world. This race was definetely amoung the top 3 I've ever been in. It was like a giant chess match out there. Incredible!"

JV after his outside pass on TGF at Spa : " I told them after testing that I thought I could go thru there flat on the outside - it's like an oval turn. They thought I was crazy, that if I tried it they'd have to get out the body bag. They were wrong, they don't know squat about ovals."

I just find it a shame that the FIA rules would only allow ovals of 1 1/2 miles or greater, no 1 mile tracks. The one mile tracks really intensify the "action". They probably realised that if Europeans ever got a firsthand taste of 1 mile oval racing, that it would be a serious threat to F1 for popularity.

On the other hand, maybe they realised that you guys and gals just aren't sophisticated enough yet to appreciate real RACING yet !

[Neil C]

Originally posted by enzo


For some strange reason, only those drivers who haven't driven an oval, especially a mile oval like Milwaukee or Phoenix, seem to think it must be easy and boring.

Actually I've never heard ANY driver say ovals are easy. Usually that comment comes from someone for whom video games are the closest they've come to actually racing a car.

I am a roadrace fan first and foremost, however, nothing in my experience with racing prepared me for my first Indy 500 viewed from turn 4.

If someone says ovals are boring, I take their word that for them it is boring...but easy? Some say that playing Blues music must be easy because it's just three chords. It may be "simple" but playing blues is not "easy". Only the good ones make is sound easy.

[Jay]

No. Nobody ever said that ovals were easy. What is said is that it is not that hard for a road course ace to be successful on ovals, however it is very hard for an oval ace to be successful on road courses. This is generally accepted as a given by most race instructors.

PS, Enzo. JV made the pass on the outside of TGF at Estoril, not Spa.

[RaceFreak]

As these yokels claim to contend for the "World Championship" they ought to race on the wide varieties of venues of the world. An oval F1 race would be very interesting. A look at the partial oval of the USGP this year found the Arrows were quickest ON THE OVAL. Perhaps the oval would be a great equalizer which would give the teams designing low-downforce cars a chance.

While many believe F1 style road/track racing is the be-all end-all to competition (as I used to believe), I must admit they haven't lived until they've seen the Outlaws sprint cars race on 1/2 mile dirt tracks. EYEWATERING. TV doesn't do it justice. If you ever get the chance, don't miss it. (last year tickets were $20 US )

[ozywoodwards]

I think we are all missing one important fact: Europeans and F1 fans don't, in general, like watching oval races. They find them incredibly dull. If oval racing was right for Europe then I think that NASCAR would be far more popular than it is now outside of North America.

[enzo]

That's probably due to the fact that Europeans have no oval races of their own to go to. Those that HAVE come over here to watch one generally loved it. TV does racing, of any sort, no justice at all. It's a bit like soccer - I think it's one of the dullest team sports ever (just behind cricket), yet I realise that I would probably think differently if I had grown up with it.

Oval racing, at least on the larger tracks, is more of a combined endurance race/chess match. To the casual observer, it doesn't seem like much is happening. Do Europeans complain about the lack of 'action' at Le Mans? Do chess affectionados complain about no 'action' in a chess match ? NO, THEY UNDERSTAND THE NUANCES.

On the shorter tracks, the action can be fierce - more of a combined chess match/prize fight. But TV generally does it no justice.

Unfortunately, in all forms of racing where technology rules, races CAN be 'dull' if one team manages to get an unsurmountable leg up on everyone else. Both F! and CART are included in that group, but, thankfully, CART less so than F1. I love F1 for the technology, but it really is the dullest 'racing' around at the moment.

I hope Rockingham turns into a real barn burner !

[RaceFreak]

Ah, Rockingham ! Picture if it were like Michigan or Fontana with the Hanford-device-thousand-lead-changes.

I'm afraid Walker Murray would have a heart failure.

[Valve Bounce]

I suppose that effort of jack Brabham wasn't that impressive although he did have a les powerful engine - at least he did try. Then Jimmy and Graham didn't do that well later on either. No I suppose F1 drivers never had that drive to win there.

[Roy2]

enzo
Well said. You are dead right in my opinion. Jay, have you ever actually been to a CART oval race? I've read your opinion regarding oval racing many times, but I doubt that you have ever actually seen one other than on a TV screen.

So what if there are more skills for a driver to master before he can road race effectively? No one ever denies this, yet you bring it up every time someone praises oval racing, or the spectacle of oval racing.

So you don't like oval racing, or don't like it as much as you like road racing. Go and see A CART oval race and then tell us about it. At least then you will have a better idea of what you're talking about.

Many road racing drivers have made the transition to ovals. In fact all of the top CART oval masters come from road racing, not just the ex-F1 guys. Andretti, Moore, Tracy, Vasser, Montoya, ... you name them. You have to go back a long way before you come to top CART oval talent that came from an ovals-only background.

They've all made the transition, but the point is that some of them do it a lot better than others. Anyone who can road race above a certain level can learn to race on an oval without actually embarassing himself, or scaring himself half to death, and might even collect the rare podium (usually through attrition) but very few of them are consistent threats to win.
This is because the ovals are a specialized form of motor racing. The skills it takes may be fewer than those required to road race effectively, but those it takes must be developed to an extraordinary degree if a competitor going to do more than just make up the numbers. Oval racing may be easier to learn, but it's just as hard to win.

Why don't you take Nigel Mansell's word for it, or Blundell's, or Cheever's, or Piquet's, or any ex-F1 driver's word for it, or go see a CART oval race yourself, instead of trotting out your stock opinion at every opportunity.
Why should you go see one? Because it will make your hair stand on end, and make you an oval racing fan, that's why.

[GURRYP]

Well said, who cares whether its F1 or CART, surely what matters is the racing itself. If its fast, loud & close who cares about oval's vs road courses ??


Gurryp

[Orange]

Er...
at risk of sounding uh, cynical, since when is F1 close??

[Valve Bounce]

Read my lips, fellas, read my lips!!

[KC]

The following information is from the British Motor Racing Circuits site.

Major road racing circuits in the UK: 17. These include Croft, Anglesey, Mondello Park, Oulton Park, Mallory Park, Pembrey, Castle Combe, Thruxton, Knockhill, Donington Park, Cadwell Park, Rockingham, Snetterton, Silverstone, Brands Hatch, Lydden, and Goodwood.

Minor road racing circuits in the UK: 5. These are Ingliston, Kirkistown, Three Sisters, Curborough, and Aintree.

Oval circuits in the UK: 32. These are Crimond, Barford, Warton, Nutts Corner, Bolton, Buxton, Stoke, hednesford, Birmingham, Coventry, Northampton, Bovington, Bristol, Taunton, St. Day, St. Columb, Cowdenbeath, Hartlepool, Bradford, Sheffield, Longeaton, Skegness, King's Lynn, Swafham, Mildenhall, Yarmouth, Ipswich, Rye House, Arena Essex, Wimbeldon, Arlington, and Ringwood.

I know that a lot of these tracks are used by bangers(what we would call hot stocks), speedway bikes, and Brisca F1 cars(super modifieds). However, it seems that oval racing is a lot more alive than dead in the UK. These are what we call the grassroots motor sports in America. Friday and Saturday night dirt oval racing is the biggest form of motorsport in America. There are more IMCA (International Motorsports Championship Association) licensed drivers in America and Canada than any other form of racing in North America. These guys take the county fair dirt tracks and privately owned bull ring circuits every weekend during the summer and get no more notoriety except among their own and their fans. Most local newspapers will not cover anything other than pure results.

For those of you who have never seen a driver like Steve Kinser balance an 850 horsepower, 950 pound sprint car on the edge of adhesion with 45 other hard bitten and relentless racers, all I can say is that you have missed something akin to Senna's Donington rain demonstration in 1993. Sure oval racing looks easy, but every racer out there knows it takes some serious skill and guts to get the last 1% of performance from the car. Please reserve judgement until you have seen it in person.

[Carrie]

Originally posted by KC
Oval circuits in the UK: 32. These are Crimond, Barford, Warton, Nutts Corner, Bolton, Buxton, Stoke, hednesford, Birmingham, Coventry, Northampton, Bovington, Bristol, Taunton, St. Day, St. Columb, Cowdenbeath, Hartlepool, Bradford, Sheffield, Longeaton, Skegness, King's Lynn, Swafham, Mildenhall, Yarmouth, Ipswich, Rye House, Arena Essex, Wimbeldon, Arlington, and Ringwood.

I wonder how old that information is, it must be at least 5 years, probably more, since Bolton's banger track closed.

[ma]

Sprinters on dirt tracks are in a world of their own ! Insane hp to weight ratio, fierce take-no-prisoners, wheel-to-wheel sideways battles, dirt & dust flung everywhere, something that has to be seen to be believed. And NO, IT ISN'T AN EASY THING TO LEARN TO DO !!!!

A great story in one of the racing mags back when F1 first was at Detroit told of the reaction of a few F1 drivers who went to see an Outlaw race at a local dirt track the night before the Grand Prix. Here were these so-call 'sophisticated' European road racers, standing at the fence, jumping up and down and screaming like a bunch of crazy kids, going absolutely nuts over what they were seeing!

A great story is told by Chris Economaki about taking Jackie Stewart to Ascot Park (one of the most fearsome track ever) back just after Jackie won his first World title. Parnelli Jones had a car that was eliminated in an early heat race, and offered it to Jackie to try in one of the consoaltion races. The conversation went something like this:

Jackie: "Uh... I left my drivers suit back at the hotel."
Jones: " No problem, I can get you a suit".
Jackie: " Uh... I left my helmet there also".
Jones: " Got a helmet right here"
Jackie: " Dammit! I left my BALLS there too!"