[LM24 Race] McNish and Rockenfeller Accidents

[Aysedasi]

For those who were there - the moment was seriously scary - and until we saw Allan actually step from the cockpit we were all seriously fearful. There is no doubt in my mind that the closed car saved his life.

Interestingly, on the pit visit I was standing right next to the #1 car in the garage and I was looking into the cockpit, initially wondering at the vast array of switchgear - but the frontal view is tiny. As was said on RLM last year, it's a bit like the tank driver's view through a small slit. OK, not quite, but the R18 programme director (sorry - forgotten his name for a moment) was asked about the A-pillar and visibility and said that because of the bodywork just beyond that, even if the pillar was smaller, the driver still wouldn't be able to see to the side. But he said the drivers were getting used to it......

[Try Hard]

Originally Posted by joeb

Wow, great shots of the car. McNish is a lucky man.

McNish I'm afraid wasn't that lucky... he had a whacking strong safety cell around him to protect him from his mistake. (and, IMO, it clearly was his mistake, his team mate had slowed up already, and given room... they could have both got through behind the corner behind the Ferrari)

The photographers and marshals there are the lucky ones... it's clear to see that catching the tyre barrier ment the car spun back onto the gravel. I dread to think what would have happened if it had been a few inches higher...

[Dunlop Corner]

I also think it was a big mistake on McNish's part. I initially thought that Alan had made a big lunge on Bernhardt and that the Ferrari just got in the way. Looking at the alternative angle posted above, it seems like McNish was alongside fairly early and should have seen the Ferrari. Perhaps visibility was a problem there.
But passing the Ferrari (not Porsche Alan...) inside there was definately not on. Yes Alan the Ferrari was not on the inside white line, because the racing line is a little out. There being a gap inside does not mean that he is leaving room to you or has seen you. If the pass was made it would have been a pass at the apex. To make that work the GT driver has to let the prototype pass, because once the GT car has commited to his line it is very hard to get out of there. To make the pass work into that corner you have to be close coming out of the chicane and pass if not under braking the certainly on the turn-in. Flying to the apex and hoping the GT car will avoid you is not very smart when you are in the lead with 23 hours to go.

Now i don't want to lecture Alan, because he is a great sportscar driver. He has definately earned the right to make a costly mistake. Alan has always seemed like an honest character and he is my favourite guest on Radio Le Mans. But i am a bit disappointed that he not only removed one of the major cars after just minutes of racing, but that he does not acknowledge his mistake.


For the accident itself it certainly looked spectacular and it could have ended much worse if the car had cleared the tire barrier. But having seen how the accident turned out, my concern was on the photographers. To me it was pretty obvious that Alan would be fine (or at least close to it). It could have been worse, but certainly the photographers were lucky.


I am also "thankfull" if that is the right word, that Alan's accident was as spectacular on the TV. Because it has removed a lot of the media focus on the Rockenfeller crash. That was just a nightmare scenary and probably the worst off you can have at Le Mans.
My god those first moments were scary. Then when a serious Dr Ullrich turned up on Eurosport and said something like "We have heard that the driver left the car..." i was for a moment thinking about a Gilles Villeneuve like accident. Then he continued "...under his own power and climbed the guardrail" oh my that was a big relief! We should be very thankfull for the safety of these cars, because Rockenfeller could not have had that accident in a Group C car.

The blame for the Rockenfeller crash was clear and it was the least ACO could do to disqualify the paydriver. Maybe something needs to be done in the future to improve the standard of the least experienced driver. It is hard to make a rule like that, because the measure of a driver is usually speed and not awareness. But i definately do not want many drivers of that guys quality, because of you come upon them on the wrong places it can have very dire consequences. We are very lucky that Rockenfeller made it.

[Dead-Eye]

Originally Posted by DavyC412

the #1 audi incident howerver, i would pin that on the ferrari. he should have held his line, he was clearly holding one side of the track then starting veering over as the audi passed, maybe to try to get out of the way, who knows, forcing the rockenfeller off the track. i think the penalty they handed out may have been a bit harsh since i dont think it was intentional, but that one i pin on the ferrari. i dont get how hindhaugh could have blamed the audi for that incident, the closing speed is so high that he would have had to make that decision to pass on the left or right way back, slamming the door on that is just silly.

The Ferrari veered over because that's the racing line in that kink. But you can't follow the racing line anymore if a prototype has committed to going down the inside and is already pretty much alongside your car.

[Try Hard]

Originally Posted by Dead-Eye

The Ferrari veered over because that's the racing line in that kink. But you can't follow the racing line anymore if a prototype has committed to going down the inside and is already pretty much alongside your car.

You do also clearly see on the video Rocky flashing his lights... some that McNish wouldn't have had the opportunity to give to the "his" ferrari..

[997 brakedust]

Dunlop corner, it seems to me that the second Audi accident was similar to the first. The Ferrari was on the racing line, the Audi tried to pass on the inside and ran out of room. Calvin Fish calls that kink right before Indianaplois the great corner at LeMans without a name. It's a very high speed corner and you have to move to the right to set up Indianapolis. If the Ferarri tried to move off line, do you end up with an accident like the Corvette and Peugot in 2010? Just glad everyone is OK.

[Gil Abobeleira]

Originally Posted by 997 brakedust

If the Ferarri tried to move off line, do you end up with an accident like the Corvette and Peugot in 2010? Just glad everyone is OK.

Hmmm, during the day, we saw the faster prototypes overtook slower GT's at that spot, as the GT's went for the outside (the left lane on the road) and the LMP's for the inside (the right lane).

[PascaLM]

Moderator, could we rename this thread as " McNish and Rockenfeller accidents" ?

[Dunlop Corner]

Originally Posted by 997 brakedust

Calvin Fish calls that kink right before Indianaplois the great corner at LeMans without a name. It's a very high speed corner and you have to move to the right to set up Indianapolis.

I believe you are on the wrong piece of road there. The Rockenfeller crash happened at the "Mercedes hump", the second of two light kinks on the run down to Indianapolis. What you are talking about is the right hander (which i indeed would also consider a true corner) leading in to Indianapolis.

If Rockenfeller had gone up the inside in the pre-Indianapolis corner, i would indeed be blaming him. But on the two kinks in the forrest, the cars can run comfortably along the outside of the road. Therefor in the kinks i do expect the GT cars to stay on one side of the road when prototypes are coming upon them. We saw this many times during the race. It takes confidence from the prototype to assume that the GT car has seen them and will act in an appropiate manner, but the drivers at Le Mans should be sufficient aware to do this.

Because the GT can run on the outside at that corner, Rockenfeller assumed the GT would do just that. I am sure if Rockenfeller had caught up just at the pre-Indy corner, he would never had gone for the inside of that corner. Instead he would have stayed behind the Ferrari, and gone up the inside into Indianapolis itself.

[997 brakedust]

Thanks for the clarification Dunlop. Thought it was right before Indy - where you can't lift off the throttle.

regards

[92scotland]

Allan McNish about to be on Reporting Scotland (BBC). You English folk can watch on Sky (BBC One Scotland is somewhere in the 900s).

[Rennen]

My son and friends were watching there at the front of the spectatator enclosure just before the accident spot...he said McNish arrived 'considerable faster' than the other Audi! I must admit that when I saw it on TV I assumed his throttle had stuck open...to have passed the other Audi so much faster...take a look at it again.

Now I remember the first lap of SPA, when McNish also arrived 'far too fast' up behind Lotterer's Audi and spun!...Seems to me, he needs to calm down a bit!

[Dead-Eye]

Originally Posted by Rennen

My son and friends were watching there at the front of the spectatator enclosure just before the accident spot...he said McNish arrived 'considerable faster' than the other Audi! I must admit that when I saw it on TV I assumed his throttle had stuck open...to have passed the other Audi so much faster...take a look at it again.

Now I remember the first lap of SPA, when McNish also arrived 'far too fast' up behind Lotterer's Audi and spun!...Seems to me, he needs to calm down a bit!

The other Audi ran slightly off the track and had to get out of the throttle.

[deggis]

New angle: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JyYEwdu1j80

[wewantourdarbyback]

I was sat at Dunlop as the incident happened. Alan got a massive run on his team mate, he was ahead as he went past us, we were sat just the other side of the bridge to the incident.

I was just celebrating the fact that he was going into the lead when the big screen cut to the accident.

From what I heard Alan say he didn't see what hit him, but that would be because he was already past the Ferrari when it hit him, i.e. he wouldn't have see the Ferrari move across into him.

Racing incident for me, Ferrari had a car flash past him and was turning before he saw it, McNish took a gap that was there but was through too fast for the Ferrari to see him.

Had he been a fraction of a second slower the two would have just bumped side to side, probably running the Ferrari off the road.

[PascaLM]

Another possible explanation ? Anthony Beltoise (Ferrari) saw only the Audi n°1 in his mirrors. So he decided to follow the two Porsche on the inside of the curve (a Felbermayr and the Prospeed) in order to free the outside line for the n°1. He didn't see McNish suddenly overtaking the n°1.

[gwyllion]

Allan McNish Talks About His Accident with the Audi R18 TDI

[deggis]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

Interestingly, on the pit visit I was standing right next to the #1 car in the garage and I was looking into the cockpit, initially wondering at the vast array of switchgear - but the frontal view is tiny. As was said on RLM last year, it's a bit like the tank driver's view through a small slit. OK, not quite, but the R18 programme director (sorry - forgotten his name for a moment) was asked about the A-pillar and visibility and said that because of the bodywork just beyond that, even if the pillar was smaller, the driver still wouldn't be able to see to the side. But he said the drivers were getting used to it......

Not so good cockpit photos:
http://img845.imageshack.us/img845/3627/2011audir18.jpg
http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/9514/audi18y.jpg

For comparison:

908 (HDI FAP):
http://img860.imageshack.us/img860/8...8200820092.jpg
http://img34.imageshack.us/img34/987...0820082009.jpg

Lola(s):
http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/905...rtinlmp102.jpg
http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/313...rtinlmp103.jpg
http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/282...0880mazda1.jpg

[NightStalk3r]

Bergmeister and Westbrook suggesting that the ACO should ban LED headlights, Bergmeister even suggesting they probably did play a role in Rocky's crash.

[NelisB]

Originally Posted by NightStalk3r

Bergmeister and Westbrook suggesting that the ACO should ban LED headlights, Bergmeister even suggesting they probably did play a role in Rocky's crash.

What would the difference be between LED's and normal lightbulbs? LED's carry more light over a longer distance making it hard to estimate the distance between your car and the R18?

[NightStalk3r]

Originally Posted by NelisB

What would the difference be between LED's and normal lightbulbs? LED's carry more light over a longer distance making it hard to estimate the distance between your car and the R18?

With normal bulbs you can see a white dot the gradually gets bigger as it gets closer with the LED's on the Audi, you can have half the mulsanne between you and your mirrors are just solid white, you cant tell how far back they are.

[NelisB]

Originally Posted by NightStalk3r

With normal bulbs you can see a white dot the gradually gets bigger as it gets closer with the LED's on the Audi, you can have half the mulsanne between you and your mirrors are just solid white, you cant tell how far back they are.

So it's the ability to see the distance between you and the car behind you... Sounds pretty dangerous. But Audi being Audi I don't see LED's being taken away from the car, how would they be able to change it without the getting rid of the LED's?

[nobster]

It seems to me that Alan has forgotten what endurance racing is all about, at Spa he made a silly mistake on the first lap and now this one, he could have waited for a better passing moment.
This could have had terrible consequenses, those photographers and track workers were very lucky to escape.

I like Alan McNish a lot but it seems to me that he needs to cool down a bit when he's in the car.

Terrible accident, this one, the gravel trap did not seem to slow the car down a lot before it hit the tyres/barrier.

[Flyin Ryan]

It's amazing one of those tire and suspension assemblies didn't land on a photographer and kill one of them. There's the one older guy in the blue shirt that's looking the other way seemingly unaware this big crash is taking place behind him and that tire just bounces right by him going at a decent clip.

[Flyin Ryan]

Originally Posted by PascaLM

Another possible explanation ? Anthony Beltoise (Ferrari) saw only the Audi n°1 in his mirrors. So he decided to follow the two Porsche on the inside of the curve (a Felbermayr and the Prospeed) in order to free the outside line for the n°1. He didn't see McNish suddenly overtaking the n°1.

I can't blame Beltoise in that incident.