[LM24 Race] McNish and Rockenfeller Accidents

[PascaLM]

Originally Posted by nobster

...
Terrible accident, this one, the gravel trap did not seem to slow the car down a lot before it hit the tyres/barrier.

The gravel traps don't slow the cars and so the technical rules will be changed toward less speed in curves, obviously now...

[PascaLM]

Originally Posted by Flyin Ryan

I can't blame Beltoise in that incident.

So do I. An accident is always the result of several causes.

[NelisB]

Originally Posted by PascaLM

The gravel traps don't slow the cars and so the technical rules will be changed toward less speed in curves, obviously now...

I don't think so. They might rethink the way the fences are positioned so the marshals are safer but I don't think they will do anything about the gravel traps. It's the best alternative. When you put down more asphalt as run off that will just create one big slippery surface when wet. And that's when most of the accidents happen...

[Mal]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

, but the R18 programme director (sorry - forgotten his name for a moment) was asked about the A-pillar and visibility and said that because of the bodywork just beyond that, even if the pillar was smaller, the driver still wouldn't be able to see to the side. But he said the drivers were getting used to it......

It was me that asked that question , Ayse, of Chris Jankel (I dont know the spelling) - I noticed that the A pillar was at least 100mm thick - maybe more,
- the answer was that the the wheel arch would stop the drivers view anyway so the A pillar didn't matter.

However the fact remains that whether caused my the A pillar or the wheel arch there is a significant blind spot of the car which I think would have been exactly the angle that would have hidden the Ferrari from view as it turned in therefore Alan had no opportunity to react.

The flipside is that the inherent strength that results from it may well have saved a life on Saturday

[Kpy]

Audi held a press conference at 1300 Sunday. Here's Allan McNish's point of view:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOx742p_a_I

Interesting that visibility from the Audi seems not to have been a factor.

[Aysedasi]

I couldn't see them admitting that even if it wasn't the case Chris........

[Mal]

There is an amazing series of photos here which show that McNish's car actually cleared the barrier and then somehow went back to the trackside

They also show the events leading up to the crash in good detail

http://photos.speedtv.com/gallery/LE.../06gF84ZcGoaTE

Sorry if this link has been posted before

[ujoint]

Rocky's (Rockenfeller) car: http://a.yfrog.com/img736/2875/wopv.jpg
One exceptionally well engineered racing machine.

[Dunlop Corner]

I don't really see how visibility from the Audi could be a cause. They both definately saw the GT car, but in Alan's case he made a bad move, while Rocky was unlucky to come up behind a guy who had absolutely no business being in the race at an unfortunate spot.

The McNish crash was a rare situation because he was making a pass for position at a place where that rarely happens, and just as they came up to a GT car. The way i see it Alan had three options: He could try going around the outside of the Ferrari, which is the standard pass if you come up to a GT car fairly late in that corner. However this would mean cutting across Bernhardt which Alan said he was not prepared to do. Alan could also just have followed the Ferrari around the corner, with the possibility that Bernhardt would pass both of them around the outside. This would have been the save and with 23 hours to go sensible move, but Alan has always been known for his agressiveness in trafic. The final option was going for the divebomb on the inside and praying that the GT car (who had at that point committed to the corner) would see him and be able to avoid him. Since Beltoise only saw Bernhardt before the corner he was aiming for the inside line and probably making room for the Audi going around the outside. The result was a disaster.
I think the move was overly agressive by McNish, particularly since his car seemed to be the best in the race and there was still 23 hours to go. But it was far from the first time that Alan has taken a large gamble in trafic, and until now he has always been lucky/skillfull enough to not have an incident.

Combined with his first corner spin at Spa, you begin to wonder if this is just a statistical anomaly or if Alan has upped his agressiveness since the "yellow" Audi is not completely dominant as it used to be. I remember when Tom and Alan was in different Audis, Tom would always go on about how Alan was overly agressive and always wanted to be faster than his teammates and the sister cars. Perhaps this is starting to show again, being that the other two Audis are capable of competing with the old guys.
Anyway, over the years McNish has earned the right to make many many mistakes, and i am sure Dr Ullrich feels the same way. But he does perhaps need to remember that we are talking about endurance racing, and it is not always adviceable to take chances that early.

[isynge]

My take on it, from seeing the start of the move on the run up to Dunlop, was that it looked ambitious, and I distinctly recall a bit of a sharp intake of breath thinking that it was going to be very tight, especially with Beltoise's Ferrari being where it was - as they passed out of sight, looked over to the screen to see if they'd picked it up (which they hadn't) and then seeing the aftermath.

Ambitious move or not, I find it very hard to allocate blame. We've all marvelled when McNish has pulled something incredible out of the hat in the latter stages of a race - and it's in the nature of things that when you explore the boundaries of the possible, sometimes you'll cross the line, and have a big off. Audi knew they were in a fight, knew they had to go faster than Peugeot, and had to do it from the start. For all McNish knew, at the end of 24 hours it might come down to seconds (as it did), and if you need to find those seconds it's easier to do if you grab them whenever you can, rather than leaving it all to the last hour.

For me, it was a racing accident - these things happen. Thankfully nobody hurt, but no need for any form of kneejerk reaction.

[NelisB]

Originally Posted by isynge

My take on it, from seeing the start of the move on the run up to Dunlop, was that it looked ambitious, and I distinctly recall a bit of a sharp intake of breath thinking that it was going to be very tight, especially with Beltoise's Ferrari being where it was - as they passed out of sight, looked over to the screen to see if they'd picked it up (which they hadn't) and then seeing the aftermath.

Ambitious move or not, I find it very hard to allocate blame. We've all marvelled when McNish has pulled something incredible out of the hat in the latter stages of a race - and it's in the nature of things that when you explore the boundaries of the possible, sometimes you'll cross the line, and have a big off. Audi knew they were in a fight, knew they had to go faster than Peugeot, and had to do it from the start. For all McNish knew, at the end of 24 hours it might come down to seconds (as it did), and if you need to find those seconds it's easier to do if you grab them whenever you can, rather than leaving it all to the last hour.

For me, it was a racing accident - these things happen. Thankfully nobody hurt, but no need for any form of kneejerk reaction.

Amen, I feel exactly the sameway. I think they knew it would be a very close race and every second would count so getting through traffic as fast as possible is a way of making sure you don't lose to much...

[Number7]

I think it was a racing accident as well. I think that Beltoise must have been distracted by the Audi #1 pulling in behind him instead of overtaking him. And yes McNish was very aggressive. When we saw him battle with Montagny up the start-finnish straight line, we said to each other that they would crash within 15 minutes. We love McNish for being aggressive, but the race was not an hour old ...

[Mike007]

I think it was simply an over ambitious move from Mcnish. There will always be accidents, no matter what the spec of the cars are and to blame poor visibility etc i think is largely avoiding the obvious - races are inherently dangerous. However, in hindsite I am sure that Mcnish would now think that leaving the move a corner later and taking the ferrari on the way out of terte rouge where the speed differencial would have made it an easy would have been the 'sensible' thing to do seeing as they had 23 hours of the race to go!

[Audi Racer]

Originally Posted by NightStalk3r

With normal bulbs you can see a white dot the gradually gets bigger as it gets closer with the LED's on the Audi, you can have half the mulsanne between you and your mirrors are just solid white, you cant tell how far back they are.

Originally Posted by NelisB

So it's the ability to see the distance between you and the car behind you... Sounds pretty dangerous. But Audi being Audi I don't see LED's being taken away from the car, how would they be able to change it without the getting rid of the LED's?

Well the GTE cars are going to no doubt be investing in Auto dimming mirros. or mirrors with a coat that dims light in them. This technology is quite old actually. My friends 1999 Mercedes S420 has yellow tinted mirrors(stock from factory) that dim the light that is shined into them. Obviously you dont wnat to use yellow since then everycar would look like a GT car in the mirror but a solution along those lines.

Most people have auto dimming Rearview mirror in the center of there car. jsut add this technology to the side view mirrors

[arakis]

I think every one here is way to light on Mcnish, it was not a racing incident, or a ambisius move, it was an totaly idiotic move that almost killed many people, while he is nicely protected in the carbon shell of his, who the hell protects the marshals and reporters. everything is his fault and his fault only, from driving like a maniac in the first hour, not respecting anything that is not a diesel, to crashing his car and almost killing doesens of people. by the sheer stupidity of his action he should be penilized for what he did.

-I am sure many here will flame the daylights out of me for posting this, but remembe it is only my opininon.

the ferrari driver is totly free of fault, he was comited to his corner, he was driving his line, everything he was expecting the first audi to take the inside line, and mcnish pops out and divers into the outside.....

[deggis]

Rockenfeller speaks:
http://www.crash.net/le+mans/news/17...i_my_life.html

[deggis]

Originally Posted by arakis

I think every one here is way to light on Mcnish, it was not a racing incident, or a ambisius move, it was an totaly idiotic move that almost killed many people, while he is nicely protected in the carbon shell of his, who the hell protects the marshals and reporters. everything is his fault and his fault only, from driving like a maniac in the first hour, not respecting anything that is not a diesel, to crashing his car and almost killing doesens of people. by the sheer stupidity of his action he should be penilized for what he did.

If you start thinking about the spectators instead of going faster, you're probably not a very good racing driver.

Case in point: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyVHj3sHVHQ&#t=0m20s

[Try Hard]

Originally Posted by deggis

If you start thinking about the spectators instead of going faster, you're probably not a very good racing driver.

Case in point: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyVHj3sHVHQ&#t=0m20s

To be honest, thats a pretty poor comparison (albeit a great vid!). The action there was 26 years ago, times and attitudes change, and having spectators so close to the cars now just isn't acceptable. Add in that the marshals and photographers were a long way from the racing surface... well, point made.

I agree that thinking about the safety of the marshals isn't the responsibility of the drivers (although the should speak up if they think there could be issues with certain tracks), and in the McNish case, really does look like the ACO need to have a re-think in that area of the track regarding their safety.

I still stand that McNish was at fault, he made an over ambitious move, a mistake. End of. Lucky that the outcome wasn't worse for those who volunteer their time.

[deggis]

Extreme example for sure, but similarly there is very little the driver can do about it while in the cockpit.

[Mal]

It is a shame when people choose to lambaste a driver for a move that didn't go right. Every overtaking manoeuvre requires the cooperation of both drivers and we love to applaud the dramatic move that goes right. I have just posted that one of my highlights of the race was seeing the Audi and Pug go either side of a corvette on Sunday morning on the Porsche Curves - if that hadn't gone right there could have been a nasty accident but it didn't so it was a great move. McNish pull a move that required the Ferrari driver not to turn in as normal - but he did so there was a crash. McNish's car was fully alongside the Ferrari though so maybe he should have been seen but, hey, that's motor racing and if drivers get penalised for racing then it would b a shame.

McNish has always been as the best bar none at getting through traffic so lets allowing him one occasion when it didn't go right.

With regard to the driver being responsible for ensuring the safety of the circuit workers etc, what rubbish! - if you do that then motor racing is finished as we know it and we might as well all pack up and not bother again or run 24 hours behind the safety car.

[Simmi]

Not sure if it's been discussed in here already but does anyone expect there to be more catch fencing down at that section next year? I'm not really sure what they can do if anything.

[gwyllion]

Some thoughts about the accidents and safety at Le Mans in general: http://www.doubledeclutch.com/?p=1380

[Simmi]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

Some thoughts about the accidents and safety at Le Mans in general: http://www.doubledeclutch.com/?p=1380

Can't say I really agree with too much of this. To read it you'd think that gentleman drivers and closed-cockpit cars were all new concepts. Le Mans is not getting less safe when you look back in history.

A lot of the reaction I've read tends to miss the point of what endurance racing is all about.

[Pandamasque]

Originally Posted by PascaLM

Another possible explanation ? Anthony Beltoise (Ferrari) saw only the Audi n°1 in his mirrors. So he decided to follow the two Porsche on the inside of the curve (a Felbermayr and the Prospeed) in order to free the outside line for the n°1. He didn't see McNish suddenly overtaking the n°1.

I think you are spot on. Around the outside is more normal lapping practice for prototypes in that long right hander. So he checked his mirrors, the Audi is clearly waiting for him to turn in, he turns in, there comes another Audi.

Originally Posted by NightStalk3r

Bergmeister and Westbrook suggesting that the ACO should ban LED headlights, Bergmeister even suggesting they probably did play a role in Rocky's crash.

This is a short clip of an RLM interview with C. Klien before the race: mp3 (right click 'save as')
Bottom line, if you're in a GT car you can't see anything in the mirrors, stick to your line and let the faster car do the overtaking.... or crash into you at 200mph.
Now, the kink is flat out in a GTE car. However, if you don't take the perfect line through it you end up turning too sharply right over the brow, and then the rear goes light, and this happens http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qa88c...layer_embedded (jump to 0:40)
So Kaufmann while being blinded by the furiously flashing lights in his mirrors had these options:
1. stay on the left, flat out and risk losing it at 290+ kph
2. stay on the left, lift off and risk being rear-ended by a storming Audi that's somewhere out there approaching him flat out
3. do as he'd been told in the driver briefing and stick to his line
He'd chosen the last option, nearly got killed by one of the works maniacs AND got excluded from the race. What a travesty. I'm not even going to mention the most ridiculous ever reasoning that came in the official message about the exclusion.

IMO, after that Thursday's overtake by Tom K. round the outside in Karting flatout through the runoff, both Ulrich and Quesnel (just in case) should have been taken by their collars, dragged to the race director and told off like naughty schoolboys. That would prevent both of the Audi accidents, the constant corner cutting and dangerous lapping by Audi and perhaps Peugeot's ignoring the blue flags too.
Instead ACO had spent the whole event spreading their legs as wide as possible.

PS:
luckily nobody got killed this time. But I find it sad that the general spin in the media is:
1. these gentlemen drivers don't know what they're doing
2. bravo Audi for building such safe cars
So these to accidents actually are very good PR for Audi. Incredible.

[gwyllion]

You link to a youtube video of a crash during the Ferrari Challange race.