LMS 2011 Discussion

[NaBUru38]

I can't find the points standings at the official website. Can you?

[Audi Racer]

I s feel like the number of cost capped P2 HPd packages is going to sky rocket next year. Anyone whos interested in P2 is surely going to pick the P2 HPd. especially given the cost capped performance that the Level 5 entry put on in qualifying at Laguna Seca.

Is there any reasoning for a prospective P2 entrant to not purchase an HPD?

[AGD]

Originally Posted by Audi Racer

I s feel like the number of cost capped P2 HPd packages is going to sky rocket next year. Anyone whos interested in P2 is surely going to pick the P2 HPd. especially given the cost capped performance that the Level 5 entry put on in qualifying at Laguna Seca.

Is there any reasoning for a prospective P2 entrant to not purchase an HPD?

Maybe this question should be asked in the HPD thread, but it is being discussed here so I will type it here. There are rumors that Oreca is no longer willing to provide tubs to Wirth for the ARX-01. Is this correct?

If so, how will teams get an ARX-01 if they want one or if they need to replace a chassis? Will they have to buy a full Oreca 03 just to get the tub? Would a FLM09 work? Would any of this affect cost-cap status for the ARX-01g?

I understand that Oreca has to protect their own business, but it is unfortunate that access to a good car may become more restrictive.

[MitchZ06]

I thought the ARX-03 was using a bespoke Wirth tub?

[CTD]

Originally Posted by AGD

Maybe this question should be asked in the HPD thread, but it is being discussed here so I will type it here. There are rumors that Oreca is no longer willing to provide tubs to Wirth for the ARX-01. Is this correct?

If so, how will teams get an ARX-01 if they want one or if they need to replace a chassis? Will they have to buy a full Oreca 03 just to get the tub? Would a FLM09 work? Would any of this affect cost-cap status for the ARX-01g?

I understand that Oreca has to protect their own business, but it is unfortunate that access to a good car may become more restrictive.

Sounds strange as the Oreca Tub used for the ARX-01 is mass produced!
But of course the HPD is a competitor to Oreca too.

Originally Posted by MitchZ06

I thought the ARX-03 was using a bespoke Wirth tub?

It is, and have nothing to do with AGD's question.

[JAG]

Wouldn't you use the same ARX-03a tub for future P2's?

[AGD]

Originally Posted by JAG

Wouldn't you use the same ARX-03a tub for future P2's?

I guess they could, but the ARX-01g appears to be the HPD LMP2 car for 2012 at the very least. Maybe things will change if Oreca tubs are no longer available.

[The Badger]

Originally Posted by AGD

I guess they could, but the ARX-01g appears to be the HPD LMP2 car for 2012 at the very least. Maybe things will change if Oreca tubs are no longer available.

Oreca are churning out tubs like smarties ..... FLM/LMPC , Oreca LMP02/03 ..... and tubs for Wirth or at leact HPD . They have monster capicity ..... as seen already .

[AGD]

Originally Posted by The Badger

Oreca are churning out tubs like smarties ..... FLM/LMPC , Oreca LMP02/03 ..... and tubs for Wirth or at leact HPD . They have monster capicity ..... as seen already .

It's not that they can't make tubs for Wirth (at least I don't think that is the issue), but it is more of a case that they don't want to help supply their biggest competitor. Maybe that makes sense for Oreca from a business perspective, but I don't know. Hopefully someone more familiar with the rumor can fill in the details of what exactly is going on with Oreca and HPD.

[The Badger]

[QUOTE=AGD;2957471]It's not that they can't make tubs for Wirth (at least I don't think that is the issue), but it is more of a case that they don't want to help supply their biggest competitor[QUOTE]

Im sorry , but you lost me on this one . Oreca supply tubs , and have been for years . Who is their the biggest competitor your talkin about ?

RML spare tub ... after the Spa accident came from Oreca . So , Oreca still supply the AXR-01 tub , as said by RML .

While RML were waitin for a new tub , they utilised the ex-Andretti chassis , which I assume is now back in the hands of Andretti .

[AGD]

Originally Posted by The Badger

Im sorry , but you lost me on this one . Oreca supply tubs , and have been for years . Who is their the biggest competitor your talkin about ?

RML spare tub ... after the Spa accident came from Oreca . So , Oreca still supply the AXR-01 tub , as said by RML .

While RML were waitin for a new tub , they utilised the ex-Andretti chassis , which I assume is now back in the hands of Andretti .

Wirth/HPD and Oreca are competitors. The Oreca 03 and the ARX-01g are competing with each other for sales. Yes, they both use an Oreca/Courage tub, but I figure that Oreca wants teams to buy the whole Oreca 03 package and not just the Courage LC75 tub for the ARX-01. Moreover, the want teams to buy the Oreca 03 and not the ARX-01 so that they can sell spare parts and stuff like that.

There have been new ARX-01s that have been built this year (at least one, I believe at least one and maybe both of the Level 5 ARX-01gs are new too), but maybe that was done before Oreca changed their mind or maybe Wirth and the teams had to buy more than just a tub to get the tub. I don't know, that is why I'm hoping someone can fill in the details of the rumor.

As for the ex-Andretti chassis, I would not be surprised if HPD owns it. Maybe not, but Andretti only ran that car when it was part of the Acura/HPD factory program.

[lms]

Originally Posted by AGD

There have been new ARX-01s that have been built this year (at least one, I believe at least one and maybe both of the Level 5 ARX-01gs are new too),

speaking of level 5 acuras: where will they race in 2012? No silverstone entry, no laguna seca entry, no PLM entry this year Any chance they will compete in LMS? With p1 disappearing, they would be competing for overall victory. Or maybe ILMC?

[MitchZ06]

Level 5 was at Laguna....not sure but they might also be entered for PLM as they've done some ILMC races this year.

[lms]

Originally Posted by MitchZ06

Level 5 was at Laguna....not sure but they might also be entered for PLM as they've done some ILMC races this year.

oh yes, they were at laguna seca, sry
plm entry with level 5 lola

[JAG]

[QUOTE=The Badger;2957473][QUOTE=AGD;2957471]It's not that they can't make tubs for Wirth (at least I don't think that is the issue), but it is more of a case that they don't want to help supply their biggest competitor

Im sorry , but you lost me on this one . Oreca supply tubs , and have been for years . Who is their the biggest competitor your talkin about ?

RML spare tub ... after the Spa accident came from Oreca . So , Oreca still supply the AXR-01 tub , as said by RML .

While RML were waitin for a new tub , they utilised the ex-Andretti chassis , which I assume is now back in the hands of Andretti .

ORECA have stopped supplying Wirth with chassis as they were in line to sell two cars to Level 5, a deal that went to Wirth.

[The Badger]

Originally Posted by AGD

As for the ex-Andretti chassis, I would not be surprised if HPD owns it. Maybe not, but Andretti only ran that car when it was part of the Acura/HPD factory program.

Andretti had to buy their chassis ..... hence why they still own it . The deal RML did for the loan unit was done with Andretti , not Wirth or HPD .

[The Badger]

Originally Posted by lms

speaking of level 5 acuras: where will they race in 2012? No silverstone entry, no laguna seca entry, no PLM entry this year Any chance they will compete in LMS? With p1 disappearing, they would be competing for overall victory. Or maybe ILMC?

WEC is their plan . They are entered in the ILMC this year , so they should be at PLM . The reason they wernt at Silverstone is because there wasnt enough cost capped one piece wheels ..... stupid , they still should have been allowed to race as it wasnt really their problem .

[The Badger]

Originally Posted by lms

oh yes, they were at laguna seca, sry
plm entry with level 5 lola

They were also entered at Laguna with a Lola , but it morphed into a HPD like magic . I think its just an issue that the entry hasnt been updated . They have the G model HPD now .

[AGD]

Originally Posted by JAG

ORECA have stopped supplying Wirth with chassis as they were in line to sell two cars to Level 5, a deal that went to Wirth.

Yeah, something like that is what I read. The question is how Level 5 ended up getting the tubs for their cars. Did Oreca stop doing business with Wirth afterwards? Or did Level 5/Oreca have to buy a whole car or something? What will future ARX-01 teams do if they want a new/replacement chassis?

[JAG]

You'd think the ARX-03a tub could be fitted to current P2's though that will need a new homologation.

It may also be used for the coupe, I believe RML used the same tub when switching from an open to coupe Lola.

[alexkiller8]

the arx-01e had the same tub of others 01, so surely will be used the same tub for the car (that basicly is an arx-01 updated).
However i really doubt that a tub built for an open proto can be used also for a coupè...

[Victor_RO]

Originally Posted by JAG

It may also be used for the coupe, I believe RML used the same tub when switching from an open to coupe Lola.

Don't think so, their open Lola from 2008 is actually now running with RLR (at least according to RacingSportsCars).

[Graham Goodwin]

Originally Posted by JAG

You'd think the ARX-03a tub could be fitted to current P2's though that will need a new homologation.

It may also be used for the coupe, I believe RML used the same tub when switching from an open to coupe Lola.

definitely not the same tub

[Thumper]

Graham's right. The RML EX265C coupé was not the same tub as the EX265, although the running gear from the open-topped car was successfully transferred to the coupé between Nurburgring and Silverstone in 2008.

Oreca produced a new tub for RML in June this year, following Mike Newton's lamentable accident at Spa. It was delivered just before Le Mans, but not in time to have full conversion to HPD specification and meet the tight schedule. As a result, the fomer Andretti Green tub was borrowed from HPD, and used not only for the 24 Hours, but also at Imola in July. This gave Wirth and RML plenty of time to complete the conversion and subsequent rebuild of the replacement tub.

I do not believe Oreca has built any further tubs for HPD since that one in June for RML. Indeed, I heard that they have refused to do so. My understanding is that both tubs used for the Level 5 ARX-01g chassis are pre-existing . . . and I leave you to ponder which is which!

As Nick Wirth confirmed at Silverstone, the tub for the 03 is all-new, and not another Courage-derived unit, although it evidently retains some familiar characteristics.

[Félix]

Speaking of RML, there's a complete explanation of why they pulled out of Estoril season finale on E-I: http://www.endurance-info.com/versio...ance-8315.html

-Decision from RML and sponsor AD Group (that's Mike Newton)
-they want to be fully competitive for 2012 (doesn't mention with what)
-they fought for competitiveness all year, had reliability issues and wanted to run the car at its full potential before deciding
-it was fully reliable and they had an "easy" race at Silverstone, and yet in the end they were still beaten by cars that ran into problems during the race
-the cost capping regulation is making their power, weight and refuelling time deficit too big
-Other manufacturers have worked around the rules by fine-tuning the price and this surely is not what the ACO had in mind when it put in place that "commendable" cost control regulation
-Furthermore, there is no TV coverage for Estoril - it's been a factor in the decision

---

So, another example of unfair regulations/poor management costing entries. And Mike Newton is not exactly poor, but these guys (like Duncan Dayton) know when to stop spending money with no hope of a worthy result. I'll gladly focus on something else... as soon as quality entrants come in to take their place.