[WEC] Porsche Prototype Discussion

[Hawkwood]

http://www.motorsport.com/wec/news/l...r-2017-852529/

It is expected that Lieb will be dropped from LMP1, motorsport.com now reporting it as definite.
Although Porsche have said they will only announce at their end of year party (2 December?).

[Graham Goodwin]

Originally Posted by Hawkwood

http://www.motorsport.com/wec/news/l...r-2017-852529/

It is expected that Lieb will be dropped from LMP1, motorsport.com now reporting it as definite.
Although Porsche have said they will only announce at their end of year party (2 December?).

Very classy of them

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Mike E

Alonso drops heavy hints about a future at Porsche.

http://www.dailysportscar.com/2016/1...h-porsche.html

So I had posted in the F1 forum the same info but with the implications to McLaren/Honda F1 seats.. 2017 (Alonso + Vandoorne) and potentially 2018 (Button + Vandoorne?). But I saw this today...

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/i...utton-q-a.html

The interesting bit is (my bold)...

Q: Are there any goals you still have? You may now be a bit old for Formula One, but for other careers, at 36 you are still a man in his prime…

JB: I am fitter than ever. I aim to be a world champion in triathlon in my age group as an amateur - not as a pro. And I would love to race in Le Mans. Rallycross is also on my to-do list - eventually. There are so many things that I want to do.

Not really a Porsche topic unless we may see an eventual Alonso + Button + ? in a Porsche!? Anyhow, when Button is mentioned, many like to try to say that Button has shown no interest in Le Mans, but I think that is untrue.

Richard

[chernaudi]

Originally Posted by Graham Goodwin

Very classy of them

Sad fact is that the #2 has underperformed since LM, and it was clear that at least one or two of the drivers would be either let go or at least moved to another program. Leib was a ton more successful in Porsche GT cars, so don't be surprised if he ends up there within the factory program. Personally, I'd think that Dumas might also be moved or granted a release.

If points were rewarded for performance in the same way for end of the day results, the #8 Audi, #6 Toyota and #1 Porsche teams would've pummeled the #2 into submission post LM. I know that's "woulda, coulda, shoulda" talk, but finishing the year with only three podiums and going 2/3s of the season without getting one after LM isn't the most inspiring way to win a title. Not to mention that in the end they got extremely fortunate with others' misfortunes with DNFs, bad races, and almost certain race wins going away because of bad luck and things not adding up right in the sequence of events and circumstances to seal the deal.

Just look at the #8 Audi that claimed runner up in the Drivers' Championship hunt by 12.5 points. If they had won the three races out of a four race stretch that they came runner up in, the situation would've been very different. 25 points for a win, 18 points for second. A win, simply put, equals a 7 point swing per race, and if the #8 Audi won those three races, it would've totaled up to a 21 point swing in their favor. Instead of losing by 12.5 points, they would've won by 8.5 points.

When you're not performing and you have to play defense, you leave yourself vulnerable if someone was able to go on a tear, especially with as competitive that LMP1 proved to be almost all season long. That's what saved the #2 from incurring the full wrath of the #1 Porsche when they won all those races this year. If you win enough, the points will take care of themselves, but that job was made all the harder for the #1 Porsche, who until they won at Nurburgring, were only able to put 1.5 points up on the board, and they had relatively little time in a 9 race championship to fully dig themselves out of that hole, which they didn't completely do.

But this is a performance driven industry, and eventually heads will roll when the results don't seem to back up the effort or investment by the whole team. Hence, people get fired or demoted, or are put under pressure to just give up and leave. At least Leib and maybe Dumas (if his head is also on the chopping block) probably won't be let go entirely from Porsche, but it could sting if it's seen that getting moved to the GT programs is a demotion from LMP1. These guys' position is also made all the more tenuous by the fact that with the Audi Sport LMP1 program folding at least for the time being, there's a sudden glut of great drivers who would be happy to take the seat vacated by the retiring Mark Webber, let alone whoever else Porsche Motorsport might want to move around.

[Spyderman]

My take is as follows:

• I believe that Porsche are trying improve the balance of the #2 team. It was quite clear that Jani was by far the quickest man, and there was really no one else in the team that could match him on a regular basis.
• Lieb is a long time Porsche employee and I doubt that they wont find him a place elsewhere.
• I'm curious to see if he will take up a driving position in the GT program (I suspect not) or a testing/engineering position within the LMP1 squad (assuming there is one available).
• Finally - I am quite sad to see him go. On a good day, he was very quick.

[porsche91722]

Just so I've got this straight........They won LM24 and the world championship.
Some may suggest they won at Le Mans by default. I don't subscribe to that BS. The #2 car was there when Toyota faltered, and they won fair and square. They had a lot of bad luck go their way post LM, but still hung on to win the championship. This surely must be one of the only times a team has had results that others would be crowing from the rooftops over, and now it seems Lieb and maybe Dumas may be getting the chop. Sure...... they haven't had the pace of some of the other cars later in the season, but you couldn't hope to have done any better on the scoreboard than these guys have done. So much for their high priced, golden haired boy Webber. On a straight out comparison between the two Porsche LMP1 cars.....game, set & match to the #2 car.

[chernaudi]

Let's see, in '12, Lotterer/Fassler/Treluyer podiumed in all but one race. '13, McNish/Kristensen/Duval podiumed in all but one race. '14, Davidson and Buemi podiumed in all but one race. '15, Webber, Bernhard and Hartley podiumed in all but the first (DNF) and last (5th in class/overall).

You do seem to be missing the point of my earlier post. The #2 Porsche won twice and got three podiums earlier this season because of others' bad luck and issues. They won Silverstone because Hartley almost put himself on his lid lapping a Porsche GT car, and after the #7 Audi got penalized/DQ'd for ride height issues. They finished second at Spa because both Toyotas hand grenaded engines, the #1 Porsche had more severe mechanical problems than the #2 had, and the #7 Audi tripped over itself a couple too many times to finish any higher than 4th. And they by and large won LM because both Audis were just short of junk most of the race, the #6 Toyota lost time due to bodywork damage, the #5 Toyota had the engine issue, and the #1 Porsche blew a water pump and nearly blew an engine.

That shows how lucky they were that everyone else had issues. Yes, being able to take advantage when others have problems is part of racing. But you can't always rely on that. And we do have to remember, as sometimes happens in F1, they changed tubs before LM in hopes that it would bring them up to speed/have more performance parity with the #1. Outside of LM, it didn't work. So you can't say they were saddled with an aged, second hand car that needed to be retired from active use.

They were never on the pace really after LM. Only at Nurburgring and early at Mexico did they IMO show signs of life, but in both races they had the misfortune of getting rear-ended by LMP2 cars. And each time after that, it seemed like the car wasn't the same for the rest of the race. And from COTA onwards, they were nowhere, really. It seemed like they had major issues with setting up the #2 Porsche, and it could be that both Leib and Dumas lost the feel for the car. And to be honest, Dumas hasn't impressed me in a LMP1 car since his last races when he was on loan to Audi Sport in 2011.

As far as your point on the scoreboard, the #2 Porsche guys overall left a lot on the table, especially when they could least afford it. Yeah, Bahrain wasn't all their fault, but they lost only one lap due to the puncture and having to limp the car back to the pits to keep from doing damage. But they lost two more laps during the race.

We do have to face it. Both Audis, especially the #8 the #1 Porsche, and both Toyotas, especially the #6 made life for them extremely hard post LM. And being near the back of a 6 car train most of the time post LM does show that they were in trouble, probably since the season began in reality. And even without Audi Sport to continue to harry them, they still have to fight with a resurgent TMG, and you can't have one car consistently off the pace when you have 1-2 other teams with more equally matched cars ready to pounce.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Sad fact is that the #2 has underperformed since LM, and it was clear that at least one or two of the drivers would be either let go or at least moved to another program. Leib was a ton more successful in Porsche GT cars, so don't be surprised if he ends up there within the factory program. Personally, I'd think that Dumas might also be moved or granted a release.

I think GGs comment was aimed at Motorsport.com reporting the Lieb driver change before Porsche do.

GG has regularly made comments in the commentary of WEC races that DSC is not in the habit of commenting on drivers careers like this because the media can influence things too much, and that isn't fair. I never understood which sites he was meaning, but I think this makes it quite clear.

[chernaudi]

Also as far as the #2 Porsche this year, one thing that struck me as odd is looking at statistics is that last year in terms of performance they weren't far off at all from the #1 in 2015. But this year it was a night and day change.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

I think GGs comment was aimed at Motorsport.com reporting the Lieb driver change before Porsche do.

GG has regularly made comments in the commentary of WEC races that DSC is not in the habit of commenting on drivers careers like this because the media can influence things too much, and that isn't fair. I never understood which sites he was meaning, but I think this makes it quite clear.

It's either fact or speculation. Funny, because specutainment is one of the names the rlm crew use. I guess if they know something, they'll run it. Maybe others take a more wait and see approach.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by TF110

It's either fact or speculation. Funny, because specutainment is one of the names the rlm crew use. I guess if they know something, they'll run it. Maybe others take a more wait and see approach.

Well the general rule of thumb on midweek motorsport is speculation is fine, but if it is going to effect a drivers career, they don't touch it until it's a confirmed fact. Seems fair enough to me.

[TF110]

I'm not in the business of journalism so I don't really take sides in these cases. If Motorsport.com has confirmation on Porsche's drivers or not, I just want to see the story. It's not my place to judge. We'll see soon anyway.

[gert]

I think *if* Porsche makes changes to its driver lineup that the drivers involved already know.
That would make it fact rather than speculation.

However, the fact has not been announced yet, and probably won't until Porsche wants to (at their event)

[chernaudi]

Porsche Motorsport seem to confirm on Twitter that both Leib and Dumas have been moved to other programs at Porsche. So two seats are open on the now #1 Porsche.

[Ephaeton]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Porsche Motorsport seem to confirm on Twitter that both Leib and Dumas have been moved to other programs at Porsche.

see also http://www.fiawec.com/en/news/lieb-a...2017_4651.html

[gert]

So: Tandy, Lotterer AND Bamber?

[Spyderman]

Originally Posted by gert

So: Tandy, Lotterer AND Bamber?

I suspect so.

[BSchneiderFan]

They seem the obvious choices. But in what combinations?

[PorscheFanNo1]

Surely it must be Lotterer to no1 car, with Tandy and Bamber to no2 car, everything else would be a big surprise to me.

[Marcel ten Caat]

Originally Posted by TF110

I'm not in the business of journalism so I don't really take sides in these cases. If Motorsport.com has confirmation on Porsche's drivers or not, I just want to see the story. It's not my place to judge. We'll see soon anyway.

Mind you that Motorsport.com is also an Official Digital Media Partner of the FIA WEC and there are some direct links ;-)

[Spyderman]

Originally Posted by PorscheFanNo1

Surely it must be Lotterer to no1 car, with Tandy and Bamber to no2 car, everything else would be a big surprise to me.

My preference would be as follows:

• Car #1 : Jani/Lotterer/ Tandy
• Car #2 : Bernhard/ Hartley/ Bamber

[wdave0]

The sensible thing would be to group them by set-up preference. I recall some years ago watching three Audis braking, one with front rotors glowing, one with rears and one with both glowing, gave me pause to think about other factors not so apparent to the outside and how important this would be across 3 or 4 drivers in a car. Of course, teams have been known to simply use size but that seems to simplistic for such a sophisticated team.

[gert]

Originally Posted by wdave0

The sensible thing would be to group them by set-up preference.
...
Of course, teams have been known to simply use size...

Set-up preference seems like an intelligent choice.
Size may be the way to go if driver changes/seat inserts etc... make you lose or win during a pitstop.

Past experience may be a factor: that's why they split Bernhard and Dumas IIRC. Both had the most experience of the Porsche LMP1 car when the racing programme started.
If they go that route, they'd probably split Bamber and Tandy

#1: Jani - Lotterer - Bamber
#2: Bernhard - Tandy - Hartley

This way, the average age of the drivers would be quite similar.


On the other hand, putting all the "rookies" in one car has worked in the past, too

[Melcor]

Originally Posted by gert

Set-up preference seems like an intelligent choice.
Size may be the way to go if driver changes/seat inserts etc... make you lose or win during a pitstop.

Past experience may be a factor: that's why they split Bernhard and Dumas IIRC. Both had the most experience of the Porsche LMP1 car when the racing programme started.
If they go that route, they'd probably split Bamber and Tandy

#1: Jani - Lotterer - Bamber
#2: Bernhard - Tandy - Hartley

This way, the average age of the drivers would be quite similar.


On the other hand, putting all the "rookies" in one car has worked in the past, too

I hope that is their (Porsche) choice.I really want to see Tandy in one car with Timo and Brendon.To be honest the gap between the cars (talking about lap times) must be closed down, so for me logical move is Lotterer to be placed in same car with Jani and....hopefully Bamber

[chernaudi]

Discussion on Midweek Motorsports FB page seems to indicate that Leib may be semi-retiring from racing to focus more on vehicle engineering at Porsche, and Dumas might go back into GT racing.

The more I read into it, it seems that neither will be full time drivers for Porsche going forward, though will still be employed by Porsche Motorsport.