ALMS and LMS

[Suze]

To continue on a discussion from the ALMS race thread from tonight, what is it about ALMS and LMES?

Personally I can sit and watch an ALMS race easily but am not keen on LMES. I don't think it's a question of what I've actually been to - I've been to Le Mans but only one ALMS race which was Petit Le Mans, will poss go to LMES at Silverstone - but I really have no interest in LMES.

Is the racing closer in the States? Is it the circuits? Is it being in Europe so knowing more about the tracks etc LMES is on and less about the US? Is it having Audi in the US / Peugeot in Europe? Is it the length of races and my attention span?!

Interested to see if anybody else has the same viewpoint, because I really can't put my finger on it.


[edit - if a mod could change the title to ALMS & LMES it'd be great - not sure if I typed it wrong or if it's the forum! Thanks ]

[Zytek_Fan]

I like Le Mans Series better. The racing is better (not including the Peugeots cuz that's just a stupid parade) and the field is a lot better.

[Knowlesy]

May as well repeat my views from the race thread.

I prefer ALMS. The races are more frantic usually IMO (see todays finish at Belle Isle, the GT2 battle in the 12 hours etc...), I have a deep love for the American/Canadian tracks (properly quick and balls out dangerous) and there is just a generally high level of competition in the classes (bar GT1 this season which is dead). I like the American TV presentation too, they always do it well over there I reckon.

LMS is probably a more traditional style endurance series with longer races and suchlike. I still enjoy that, but I wouldn't watch it over ALMS. LMS also has the problem of dreadful commentary - I really cannot be bothered sitting through six hours of Carlton Kirby or Mark Cole talking about a race that is markedly different to the one I am seeing on screen.

[PorscheFanNo1]

Agree 100% with Knowlesy! Absolutely love Leigh Diffey, Greg Creamer, Dorsey Schroeder, Calvin Fish, Brian Till and all those that comment on the Sportscar races on Speed, makes the race so much more interesting to watch!

[Jimmy Magnusson]

Huh. I disagree. While the Speed commentators are (obviously) better than Carlton Kirby, neither them nor the production itself is anywhere near good enough. Lately I've given up watching it live and has started listening to Radio Le Mans instead - Hindy is infinantly better. If only the radio had been live instead of circa 15 seconds delayed, then I could have Motors on mute and be a very happy man indeed.

[cptkablamo]

As a series I like the LMS better (race format, grids and the true privateer) but here in Oz we only get an hour recap a couple months after the race - with that, the ALMS package is usually better - or at least more entertaining...

[dj4monie]

This foolishness about privateers is just bugging me to death. Anytime Sportscar has been GREAT as been when the factories are duking it out.

Porsche is in the business for PROFIT. That means building fast race cars for their teams and drivers and also customers.

If you can't drive as fast as Pat Long, too F****** bad hire somebody that can, or hire HIM.

This is a Rich Man's playground and frankly while I liked watching Robin Leach and The Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous; they are the FIRST to complain when the asking price to being competitive is tripled seemingly overnight when the factories come in.

I wouldn't complain, I'd open my wallet. Maybe with some personality, flare and some race victories I can get somebody else to foot the bill (sponsors). Sportscar fans like the Roush, Penskes and Williams of the world didn't start with from taking food stamps from the government. Everybody but Frank Williams and Jack Roush come Silver Spoon academy. Penske did not have a improverished childhood, make no mistake.

He got out of the race car and used his family stake to build an empire. Was it easy? No, what it hard more than likely but made much easier by Mark Donahue, Rick Mears, Bobby Allison and various others.

Now how come other people can't understand this?????

This has alot to do with the topic, but I will now reply directly to the thread.

The ALMS has vastly better and deeper fields in all classes but GT1 because it is ruled by a dominate team. This is not about being "American" or any of that BS.

I have downloaded several of this season's LMES races and of course who wins overall is a forgone conclusion and you guys complained about how much Audi dominated here, now that the shoe is on the other foot, wouldn't you like to see somebody, anybody challenge Peugeot??

Sure you would.

A runaway is good every so often because somebody just gets it right, but to have a whole season dominated by one car, one team, whatever is quite boring.

But I think most of you, especially Americans/Canadians like LMES because you have this romanticism with the pass and how a season full of 12 hour and 24 hour races would make for a better series.

Well it was would when almost NOBODY had TV and you actually had to go to the racetrack to see the race.

The longer format of the LMES is not TV friendly period, in this market, that market or any market.

You think people would be tolerant of 4-6 hours races with the Cup series regularly running that long, but they aren't, or at least that is what the management in IMSA think.

The lower classes in LMES are laughably uncompetitive. Oreca has beaten P&M before they know how to do it, but Modena and others - NOPE

None of Ferrari's factory supported drivers are doing the LMES to my knowledge and that has allowed a few victories by Autolandro.

All those things add up to a series not better than the ALMS, period end of story.

The format of a race does not make it automatically BETTER.

[Dutton]

Originally Posted by dj4monie

I have downloaded several of this season's LMES races

Where from? I would very much like to see some, what with being in Canada making it rather tricky TV-wise (unless I have been missing something obvious).

I won't make comment on comparison until I have the chance to see some of the offerings of LMES over the last couple of years (or pick-up those to come since it appears they are in fact downloadable), but from the ALMS side I would say I don't like the 2hr 45min rounds.

I am not saying I would want, or expect, every race to be 24 hours, or anything, but I do think 2hrs 45min is too short. I could settle for 4hrs being the "sprints".

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by PorscheFanNo1

Agree 100% with Knowlesy! Absolutely love Leigh Diffey, Greg Creamer, Dorsey Schroeder, Calvin Fish, Brian Till and all those that comment on the Sportscar races on Speed, makes the race so much more interesting to watch!

Leigh Diffy use to race Australian V8s
Greg, Dorsey and Calvin use to race Trans Am
DOnt know if Brian Till raced.

I watch a few LMS races on a Motors rebroadcast on Speed TV last Nov & Dec. The announcers were awfull Their use of 'slag' and single word 'apologies' were so bad, it was difficult to understand and some times wondered if they were speaking English or not?

Granted our coverage of the LMS races is horrible. a 4 or 6 hour race condensed into 1 hour with 45 mins of the broadcast about the drivers sad stories, and little of the cars, or the race.

[PorscheFanNo1]

Originally Posted by AU N EGL

Greg, Dorsey and Calvin use to race Trans Am

How can anyone not know that? They bring it up and joke about it every race.

[duke_toaster]

Originally Posted by Dutton

Where from? I would very much like to see some, what with being in Canada making it rather tricky TV-wise (unless I have been missing something obvious).

Check your PMs.

[Hammerdown]

I must admit to prefering ALMS. I think it's mainly down to the fact there isn't such total domination (this year at least), and also partly due to the varied format. You need to have the endurance element, but I like the idea of the shorter races as well. Having said that there is also the potential problem of wealthy (factory?) teams having both sprint and endurance engines, which can skew things a bit. Another big plus to ALMS is the radio coverage.

[isynge]

The closest analogy I can come up with is that ALMS and the LMS are a bit like limited over cricket compared to a test match. Basically the same game on with the same principles, just different parameters requiring a different approach. Both with appeal and worth watching, but there's a time and a place for each.

Personally I like the ebb and flow of the longer races, where a car can fight its way back from problems etc, but that's not to take anything away from the ALMS. I've had some great days out at LMS rounds, that said, I'm certain an ALMS weekend would be superb.

In terms of marketability it's interesting to think that the FIA Sportscar championship inspired very few people with its short races, while when the LMS came along, with its explicit commitment to 1000km races, there was a perceptible uptick in enthusiasm, to say nothing of grid sizes.

[courageous]

There is a simple reason ALMS is more entertaining than LM(e)S.
IMSA ensure that there is close racing by reigning in dominante cars & given performance breaks to those at the back, whereas in Europe it is seen as the team's responsibility to put on a good show.

We all know that if the cars were running to Le Mans rules then the Audi/Porsche battle would not have happened.

To some people, performance breaks tarnish a race; to others they make the race.

[Speed-King]

There are no performance breaks for the Porsches since round 6...

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by courageous

There is a simple reason ALMS is more entertaining than LM(e)S.
IMSA ensure that there is close racing by reigning in dominante cars & given performance breaks to those at the back, whereas in Europe it is seen as the team's responsibility to put on a good show.

We all know that if the cars were running to Le Mans rules then the Audi/Porsche battle would not have happened.

To some people, performance breaks tarnish a race; to others they make the race.

Most of this is false. The P2's ran to 06' ACO regs to round six, and have been running to 07' ACO regs since.

[Adam43]

Yes, but the general point about changing the rules remains. The rules have been tweaked because Porsche were winning too easily - since then we have had some closer races.

Although, of course, the lighter cars have more of a chance on American tracks (etc etc). However there is an element of what courageous says in the thinking in ALMS I am sure.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by AdamAshmore

Yes, but the general point about changing the rules remains. The rules have been tweaked because Porsche were winning too easily - since then we have had some closer races.

Of course, but it was the ACO who ultimately changed the rules right? Based upon Porsche's performance, they'll change them again in 08'.....

Originally Posted by AdamAshmore

Although, of course, the lighter cars have more of a chance on American tracks (etc etc). However there is an element of what courageous says in the thinking in ALMS I am sure.

Please explain the different in American tracks and European tracks..because I don't see a difference.

[Adam43]

Off topic: About 4000 miles. As a general rule, the European tracks in the LMS are faster. A smaller nimbler car is more suited to the American tracks, especially the street circuits, of which there are none in the LMS. No direct comparison as to the degree of this effect can be made because the LMS doesn't have a top line P2 yet. However we can see the relative performance of the Audi/Porsche: Some tracks suit one more than the other. Although I was impressed with how close the '07 Audi was on this weekends street track.

Yes the ACO change the rules in all the classes to tweak, but it can happen more often in the ALMS, who seem more willing to do so.

[Purist]

The European tracks are generally more open in layout, even if they are not always as fast in absolute terms. They are also generally wider. For reference, the average length of an ALMS track for this 12 race season is 2.572 miles. For the LMS and its six races, the average is 3.247 miles.

[dxk1]

I think having all 6 hour races is an OK format, but what makes ALMS more interesting is the variety of layouts and variety of races. I didn't like the one race that was less than 2 hours and believe all of the 2:45s should be increased to a minimum of 3 hours. The addition of one 6 hour would be good (either Miller or Road America). Then you'd have 3s, a 6 a 10 and a 12.

DK

[SebringMG]

Personally if i was racing i would perfer the format of the LMS however, as a paying customer i would rather watch the ALMS. They are more fun and interesting - i also think that they are more professional.

I would actually prefer the LMS to drop some of the six hour races and introduce a number of sprint races for certain markets to attempt to create some spectator interest. 6 hours is imo too long for the majority of race fans!!

[AU N EGL]

The 2:45 format was to fit into a 3 hour TV time frame.

Sports spectator demographics of US TV viewership showed that no matter what sport was on TV after 3 hours the viewership dropped like a lead balloon.

NASCAR has races that last longer, but TV viewership DURING the races change.

Example, I will watch the start and the first few laps, then come back for the last hour of a NASCAR race. Unless it is on the Glen or Sonoma.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by AdamAshmore

Off topic: About 4000 miles. As a general rule, the European tracks in the LMS are faster. A smaller nimbler car is more suited to the American tracks, especially the street circuits, of which there are none in the LMS. No direct comparison as to the degree of this effect can be made because the LMS doesn't have a top line P2 yet. However we can see the relative performance of the Audi/Porsche: Some tracks suit one more than the other. Although I was impressed with how close the '07 Audi was on this weekends street track.

People, let's not spread around myths as though they are facts.

2007

181.5425997 km/h Nurburgring
172.6934087 km/h Valencia
220.6787086 km/h Monza
190.9502749 km/h Mid Ohio
196.776 km/h Lime Rock
190.9502749 km/h Utah
204.2080508 km/h Sebring
216.418 km/h Mosport
217.830 km/h Road America
163.485 km/h Detroit
209.005 km/h Spa

2006

213.135082 km/h Mosport
207.7663104 km/h Road Atlanta
214.8055811 km/h Road America
199.0291 km/h Spa

So, I'm not sure how these tracks are different, or how the European tracks are faster. If someone has a theory, please back it up with facts and data, showing meaningfully how one continents tracks are substantially different than anothers. Of course the street tracks are slower, but lets drop them from the discussion. How are the Spa's, Valencia's, Nurburgring's different than the Mosport's, Road America's, Lime Rocks, Road Atlanta's.

Average length of a track is also completely meaningless, or else we could immediately conclude the the Nordscheife is by far and away faster than Le Mans.

[Dani Filth]

I enjoy every bit of LMS and ALMS .. bring on Silverstone in 2 weeks time