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Old 19 Nov 2008, 20:41 (Ref:2337870)   #26
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And if it wasn't for Peugeot pushing Audi i think we would have seen a 4. Stint!
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Old 19 Nov 2008, 22:55 (Ref:2338020)   #27
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Originally Posted by JAG
Recent developments from Audi and Porsche, i.e. direct injection, are with a view, mainly, to improve fuel ecomy and reduce pitstops, this has paid off at Le Mans, but also shorter ALMS events.

I could imagine by 2011, with P2 engines, a hybrid system, and more durable tyres, we could see some amazingly long stints.
Fuel tanks are being reduced yet again, so I doubt this will happen.

I can understand why they want to do this from a "potential stored energy" point of view. But as in the case of the Diesels smaller fuel tank, fans and spectators never get to see the fuel economy aspects in comparison to Petrol cars etc.
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Old 19 Nov 2008, 23:21 (Ref:2338035)   #28
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Originally Posted by Flat12-Aircool
Fuel tanks are being reduced yet again, so I doubt this will happen.

I can understand why they want to do this from a "potential stored energy" point of view. But as in the case of the Diesels smaller fuel tank, fans and spectators never get to see the fuel economy aspects in comparison to Petrol cars etc.
Isnt that way the diesels have the smaller Fuel tanks? SO the distance per stint is bout the same.

IF the spectators saw the fuel millage, I think quite a few would faint dead away. 5-6 maybe 6 1/2 mpg on cruse mode.

OK figure how many laps they run on a fuel stint, and then the distance. We know how much fuel each carries.
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Old 20 Nov 2008, 01:29 (Ref:2338074)   #29
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So, LMP1s with 3.4L V8s. Toyota Super GT engine with a hybrid in an LMP1 in 2011, anyone?
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Old 20 Nov 2008, 01:39 (Ref:2338076)   #30
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Originally Posted by deggis
I like this one:

Also maximum energy stored is 1 MJ, as far as I remember F1 rules say 300 kJ. But that "not to be used to get more power but reduce fuel consump." is quite funny.

Does LMS have its own rule book or where is the two race engine rule?
I wonder what we're going to do with all of those fuel maps now?
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Old 20 Nov 2008, 01:45 (Ref:2338077)   #31
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Is the ACO really going to limit the number of cylinders to a specific? I mean that puts about half the field out of contention. And how do they figure a 3.8L twin turbo diesel is going to be *only* as competitive as a 3.4L NA petrol engine?
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Old 11 Feb 2009, 01:05 (Ref:2394242)   #32
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I recently realised there is something obscure or weird, depending on the outcome, in the hybrid regulations. I don't recall this particular thing getting much attention. Maybe everyone have thought it is self-evident.

It is about this, the way it is written or worded:

Recovery of energy from the brakes on the 4 wheels or from the heat of the exhaust fumes

Does this actually mean that kinetic energy recovery systems would be outlawed? Instead heat energy from the brakes could be recovered.

Ever since reading that, I guess too quickly, in November, I have naturally thought it just means that recovery of kinetic energy is allowed from the rear and front axle during braking. I think many people have thought this way, since people often just refer to KERS, where 'K' obviously stands for Kinetic.

Outlawing kinetic recovery would make absolutely no sense, and not least because it would mean 908 HY's system would be useless. And regarding the quite high limit on stored energy (1MJ - compared to F1's 400 kJ), heat recovery is much less effective.

Thoughts?

Last edited by deggis; 11 Feb 2009 at 01:10.
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Old 12 Feb 2009, 00:24 (Ref:2395809)   #33
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Looking at these radical '09 cars, I wouldn't be suprised if they produce more downforce than the full wing '08 cars, so I still expect Le Mans pole to be around 3.24 (accounting for the diesels 10%/70bhp power loss).

Even a 'P2' engined 570bhp 2011 car should be capable of qualifying in 3.30 or under, from the off.

Last edited by JAG; 12 Feb 2009 at 00:32.
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Old 19 Feb 2009, 17:25 (Ref:2400324)   #34
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Originally Posted by Adam Larnach
Is the ACO really going to limit the number of cylinders to a specific? I mean that puts about half the field out of contention. And how do they figure a 3.8L twin turbo diesel is going to be *only* as competitive as a 3.4L NA petrol engine?
My biggest protest isn't even technical, it's aural. Everytime there is a thread or discussion on the topic of "why do you love this form of racing," a quite pervasive theme is "the sounds." So ACO takes away V10s and V12s? How damn dumb is that? I continue to believe that aside from their natural beauty, the reason that Grand Am's DPs are so despised is the "V8 only" rule.
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Old 19 Feb 2009, 18:16 (Ref:2400343)   #35
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Originally Posted by TWK
My biggest protest isn't even technical, it's aural. Everytime there is a thread or discussion on the topic of "why do you love this form of racing," a quite pervasive theme is "the sounds." So ACO takes away V10s and V12s? How damn dumb is that? I continue to believe that aside from their natural beauty, the reason that Grand Am's DPs are so despised is the "V8 only" rule.
You are right!
Besides how many race classes allow you to run so many different types of engines!?.
Endurance need 4, 6, 8, 10 and 12 cylinders!, it's what makes it more interesting for the fans!, and make sure we get some cars with different specs!
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Old 19 Feb 2009, 18:18 (Ref:2400345)   #36
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Originally Posted by deggis

Recovery of energy from the brakes on the 4 wheels or from the heat of the exhaust fumes

Does this actually mean that kinetic energy recovery systems would be outlawed? Instead heat energy from the brakes could be recovered.

Thoughts?
Deggis - you are right - this is very strange wording from the ACO and I have been surprised that few people have picked up on it. I have spoken with a few people on this and the best we can come up with is this:-

Use of engine braking reduces heat buildup in brakes thus reduces their temperature. With a KERS generator attached the engine braking effect increases thus the brakes have less work to do and thus their temperature is lower.

Ergo the brake heat ( in all 4 wheels) has been "converted" to stored energy by the generator.

Does anyone else think this explanation stacks up?

A further point is that the ACO rules say the stored energy can only be used to increase range not speed. That, I think, is the killer; F1 KERS is certainly aimed at "press to pass" buttons specifically banned by ACO - this may be what is currently keeping the 908HY out.

This is the quote "The use of such a system must not be aimed at obtaining additional power but at reducing fuel consumption and CO2 emissions"

How does the Peugeot KERS do that? There may be an argument similar to the one above about heat - but I haven't worked it out - any ideas?

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Old 19 Feb 2009, 18:23 (Ref:2400346)   #37
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You are right!
Besides how many race classes allow you to run so many different types of engines!?.
Endurance need 4, 6, 8, 10 and 12 cylinders!, it's what makes it more interesting for the fans!, and make sure we get some cars with different specs!
Theres no reason why we'll won't still see 12 cylinder engines in P1/GT2 classes. There must be 4.5l production V10s/V12s out there somewhere.

However, in the next few years its unlikely that many new V10V12 engines will be made by new sportscar manufacturers. 6 and 8 cylinder engines are the future on the road as well as the race track.
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Old 19 Feb 2009, 18:42 (Ref:2400356)   #38
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Originally Posted by johntt
Theres no reason why we'll won't still see 12 cylinder engines in P1/GT2 classes. There must be 4.5l production V10s/V12s out there somewhere.

However, in the next few years its unlikely that many new V10V12 engines will be made by new sportscar manufacturers. 6 and 8 cylinder engines are the future on the road as well as the race track.
Hmm, I think you need to read the supposed 2011 rule framework, released by the ACO here where it states V-8 (max).




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Old 19 Feb 2009, 18:43 (Ref:2400358)   #39
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Theres no reason why we'll won't still see 12 cylinder engines in P1/GT2 classes. There must be 4.5l production V10s/V12s out there somewhere.
Thats 0,375l per cylinder for the V12 and 0,45l for the V10!. If you use those numbers for an 4 cylinder engine, that would be and 1,5l and 1,8l engines!.
A V10 is likely, but the V12 is getting to small, and reliability will become a big issue!
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Originally Posted by johntt
However, in the next few years its unlikely that many new V10V12 engines will be made by new sportscar manufacturers. 6 and 8 cylinder engines are the future on the road as well as the race track.
There aren't many V10 road cars. But i don't believe they will die out!. Supercars will still be made with the big V engines, like the american muscle V8 never really died!
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Old 20 Feb 2009, 02:14 (Ref:2400598)   #40
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Deggis - you are right - this is very strange wording from the ACO and I have been surprised that few people have picked up on it. I have spoken with a few people on this and the best we can come up with is this:-
We talked about this via email two weeks ago

Quote:
A further point is that the ACO rules say the stored energy can only be used to increase range not speed. That, I think, is the killer; F1 KERS is certainly aimed at "press to pass" buttons specifically banned by ACO - this may be what is currently keeping the 908HY out.

This is the quote "The use of such a system must not be aimed at obtaining additional power but at reducing fuel consumption and CO2 emissions"
This shouldn't be issue with 908 HY? From the press release:

This energy can be used:
1) either to deliver extra power thanks to an additional boost of 60kW (80hp) for approximately 20 seconds per lap, either automatically when re-accelerating, or when the driver chooses to make use of it ('push to pass').
2) or to reduce fuel consumption for the equivalent level of performance thanks to the mechanical energy recovered (between three and five per cent).


At least it is sure it recovers kinetic energy, since press release mentions that clearly.

Have you seen this?
http://www.racecar-engineering.com/n...y-unclear.html

Comment from Peugeot source: "the ACO regulations are not definitive for HY prototype. So we wait."

But that could mean anything... (safety etc).


.

Last edited by deggis; 20 Feb 2009 at 02:19.
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Old 21 Feb 2009, 10:40 (Ref:2401305)   #41
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I am definitely not a fan of how the ACO has handled the 09 to 2011 rules. The 09 rules were not changed in a way that would make 2011 engines competitive at present times. So basically you have Audi and Acura creating new cars and engines, but only able to run such combination for 2 years. Not the best way to get factory involvement. Current car sales don't help.
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Old 21 Feb 2009, 12:01 (Ref:2401334)   #42
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I am definitely not a fan of how the ACO has handled the 09 to 2011 rules. The 09 rules were not changed in a way that would make 2011 engines competitive at present times. So basically you have Audi and Acura creating new cars and engines, but only able to run such combination for 2 years. Not the best way to get factory involvement. Current car sales don't help.
I don't think they've done such a bad job.

Remember that 2011 will not require completely new cars for P1 and P2, just new drivetrains, and in the case of 2011 P1 the drivetrains already exist for NA and turbo petrol.
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Old 2 Mar 2009, 20:50 (Ref:2407601)   #43
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What about the reduced rear wing area? Is that for P1 only or both LMP classes. I've think I've seen the teams have the option this year to run either 08 or 09 wing specs. What is the advantage to using the 09?
Are we talking approximentally 20% reduction at the rear wing only or some other number?

thanks all, interesting discussion so far.
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Old 2 Mar 2009, 20:55 (Ref:2407605)   #44
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What about the reduced rear wing area? Is that for P1 only or both LMP classes. I've think I've seen the teams have the option this year to run either 08 or 09 wing specs. What is the advantage to using the 09?
Are we talking approximentally 20% reduction at the rear wing only or some other number?

thanks all, interesting discussion so far.
dh
The choice of either the '08 or '09 rear wing is in the ALMS only as far as I am aware.

Tom.
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Old 2 Mar 2009, 21:01 (Ref:2407612)   #45
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To clarify only the ALMs P2 class has the option of of running 08 spec wing but with the penalty of carrying 50 kilos extra weight which is why the fernandez car complained that the Acura P2 felt slower. If the P2 team runs the 09 wing they don't have to take on the extra weight
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Old 2 Mar 2009, 21:01 (Ref:2407614)   #46
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Correct!. LMS, Asian LMS and Le Mans demands the 09 spec rear wing!.
And there is no advantage of the 09 wing in comparison to the 08 wing.
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Old 3 Mar 2009, 01:48 (Ref:2407774)   #47
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To clarify only the ALMs P2 class has the option of of running 08 spec wing but with the penalty of carrying 50 kilos extra weight which is why the fernandez car complained that the Acura P2 felt slower. If the P2 team runs the 09 wing they don't have to take on the extra weight
That would make for an interesting comparison between the Dyson car's, one with the '09 wing, and one with the '08 wing +50kilos. I wonder if they did any simulations before making a decision...
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