'10 LMS Finalé • Silverstone • '10 ILMC Round 1

[MihokS5]

Thanks for posting the videos. After watching them it seems that both cars are actually pretty close in speed

[manthey]

I love this forum because I'm not so documented as you and often I find interesting things ..so please can you explain the difference between IMSA pit rules and silverstone-le mans regulation referred here?
http://tentenths.com/forum/showpost....&postcount=231

what about the fact bentley run LMP2 spec tyres instead lmp1?
http://tentenths.com/forum/showpost....&postcount=229

thanks!

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

I doubt that Peugeot is any faster than Audi, but I'm also willing to say that Audi, qualifying aside, wasn't all that much faster than Peugeot most of the weekend, but fast enough to give Peugeot some worries.

Originally Posted by chernaudi

If the #7 didn't retire, we probably would've seen a much closer race and that car didn't get to put in a fast lap during the race because of that.

I'm sorry but you're living in cloud cuckoo land. Either that or you weren't watching the same race as me. Audi were well beaten and I haven't the slightest doubt that the #7 car would have been well beaten had it not broken.

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Peugeot may've gotten a freebee today....

'Freebie'? Are you serious? I saw no freebie. I saw Audi comprehensively beaten.

You're beginning to sound more and more like John Hindhaugh every day...... Perhaps a step back and a more impartial perspective without the rose-tinteds might help?

[WMUCarGuy]

I don't suppose anyone at the race collected chassis numbers did they? I know a lot never change, but I'd love to know about the Audis, factory Pug, BMW, and more!

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Unless Peugeot sandbagged (which judging by lap times is unlikely), the #7 Audi, if set up properly (which the #8 wasn't from warm up onward), should've been as fast as both Pugs.

Judging from the better fuel economy, the Peugeots were not race at full pace. The #8 Audi needed a extra splash&dash to get to the finish.

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Qualifying was sunny and warm, and even both Audis had issues in traffic in qualifying, so why Peugeot couldn't get the job done there is beyond me.

As Steve Tarrant said, qualifying was very windy. According to McNish this helped Audi in qualifying:

Obviously there is an aero change and it's a big improvement. It's a little bit easier to drive, bit more consistent, and I think in the windy conditions in qualifying it helped us a bit. It probably favoured us a little bit more than it would have done if it had been calm.

source: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/86618

Even Kristensen acknowledged that Peugeot had worse luck with traffic during qualifying:

It was difficult to get the timing right in traffic. But Allan (McNish) and Timo (Bernhard) managed it superbly. The two Peugeots seemed to have a bit more of a struggle.

source: http://www.fourtitude.com/news/publi...cle_6217.shtml

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by MihokS5

Thanks for posting the videos. After watching them it seems that both cars are actually pretty close in speed

These videos don't show how Davidson drove into the distance once he got past McNish and how Lapierre was catching McNish when he got past Bernhard

[gwyllion]

Interesting. According to Audi's post race press release claims that the differential also caused problems for the #8 Audi:

The unusual defect on the differential, which will be carefully examined in the next few days at Audi Sport in Ingolstadt, affected the race of Timo Bernhard and Dindo Capello as well. Because the team did not want to take any risks with the tire strategy with one remaining car the tires of the second R15 TDI were changed at the first refueling stop to be on the safe side. This caused Bernhard/Capello to lose contact with the leading Peugeot that was driving two stints on one set of tires from the outset.

In addition, unusually heavy understeer caused the gap to the leading Peugeot to increase to slightly more than one minute by the end of the first half of the race. In the second half Bernhard/Capello were able to keep the pace of the front runners and to even reduce the gap to about 50 seconds. However, an additional refueling stop three laps before the finish locked third place of the German-Italion duo in concrete.

The #8 Audi lost too much time in the pits: new tyres after first stint and splash&dash at the end of the race.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

As for the #8, I'm almost tempted to say that it had to have something go wrong with the suspension of the car, because Dindo said that in warm up it started off fine, but developed the understeer, and whatever they did had little effect on it. Remember, Audi built a different car for Silverstone '08 because the car that was run at the Nurburgring had similar handling problems. Hopefully, Audi won't have to resort to building up another car, since no R15 has been in a hard accident as far as I know. But I'll bet that they're checking shocks and torsion bars to see if something may've broke that they didn't find before the race.

You think too much. According to Bernhard (see here), they did not make any changes to the setup overnight after qualifying. The car developed extreme understeer because the track conditions changed a lot (warmer temperature + more rubber).

[carsten66]

Besides all the disussed Audi - Peugeot stuff, we shouldn't forget to note the impressive performance again from Strakka and also from JMW and Prospeed Competition...

[Craner Curves]

What was the reason for the JMW drive through? I couldn't quite hear it on the PA system.

[old man]

Originally Posted by Craner Curves

What was the reason for the JMW drive through? I couldn't quite hear it on the PA system.

Not respecting the circuit confines, going over the line with all 4 wheels through Copse on 3 occasions is what I was told

[Craner Curves]

I thought it was something like that. I heard bits and pieces of info, but couldn't hear it in full.

[manthey]

Bernhard also poited out about wind but on quali they obtained an advantage

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/86673

[chernaudi]

Miniassain was given a warning for doing the same, and that was after the #7 Audi retired and the #4 Pug and the #8 Audi started to loose track position.

It also surprised me that reading the Audi releases that briefly the #8 Audi gained time late in the race and took about 10 seconds out of the lead Peugeot inspite of their issues. Either they figured something out or the Pugs really backed off late to save fuel because of the near 1 minute lead they had at the time. Could explain why the #8 had to pit while the Pugs didn't need to.

Unless the differential packed up on the #8 to the point of enducing handling problems but not to failure, I don't see how the #7's failure effected the #8. It seemed just on pace that the #8 was set up conservatively until qualifying, and after Timo spun during his stint, Audi changed tires on the 8, which is what cost them time in the first place.

Either Audi needs to understand the areo package on their cars more or they underadjusted for the conditions on Sunday.

Also, looking at some photos of the rear wheels of the #1 Pug on Planet Le Mans, I can't read the "Michelin" on the left rear tire--brake dust or contact?

[LeMans.pt]

Originally Posted by carsten66

(…) we shouldn't forget to note the impressive performance again from Strakka

more of the same... if they (Leventis) didn't crashed in Spa and didn't had problems at Portimão, they would have won all races the HPD is to much for the competition! It's like having a factory car at LMP2.

Originally Posted by carsten66

(…) and also from JMW and Prospeed Competition...

Specially JMW. They should have won...

[Victor_RO]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Also, looking at some photos of the rear wheels of the #1 Pug on Planet Le Mans, I can't read the "Michelin" on the left rear tire--brake dust or contact?

Diesel soot. I'm rewatching Le Mans itself now and, during every Peugeot driver change/tire stop, the rear tires are noticeably blackened by soot/smoke, since the car has side-exit exhausts. When the tire is taken off you can barely see the Michelin logo on it.

[henk4]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Miniassain was given a warning for doing the same, and that was after the #7 Audi retired and the #4 Pug and the #8 Audi started to loose track position.

It also surprised me that reading the Audi releases that briefly the #8 Audi gained time late in the race and took about 10 seconds out of the lead Peugeot inspite of their issues. Either they figured something out or the Pugs really backed off late to save fuel because of the near 1 minute lead they had at the time. Could explain why the #8 had to pit while the Pugs didn't need to.

just got home from the race and I haven't read the whole thread.
Some points you mention here in combination to what I read before.

The Pugs backed off, as it was already known that the Audi had to refuel one more time. It was simple calculation, they saw that when the Audi went in for its 6th stop it could not finish the remaining laps without refuelling, so no need for charging (they learned their lesson at Le Mans).

What I find more interesting is the comment that Audi let the #8 go slower to save the dif, (I was in the Audi box when McNish went out, and a mechanic told me he had just lost "Antrieb", ) and that even in spite of this holding back, the car needed an additional fuel stop. Apparently their new aero package increased the speed, but more prominently also the drag, which resulted in excess fuel consumption. In view of the actual race result, one should read the press release issued by Audi after qualifying......

With regards to the Davidson pass on McNish, both drivers knew what they were doing, McNish trying to intimidate a little, and Davidson trusting him enough that he would still let some space for the pass, but it looked impressive. (Any parallel with the Shumi-Barri event is not in place as these two drivers clearly did NOT trust each other).

All in all very exciting race, but it lost much of its value when Mc Nish had to retire, and I am sure that even Peugeot in a way regretted that, as they had the opportunity to beat him fair and square, which would have certainly been a much nicer win.

Decent Ferrari win in GT2, but the annoying part is the stupid racetrack rule, which become much more prominent now that the track has been revamped for Moto GP races, which prefer to have hard shoulders along side the track.

[chernaudi]

And the F1 paved runoff areas...Even Watkins Glen as them for NASCAR.

I doubt that the fuel mileage issue is down to the drag of the R15--as I said, they had a 1 minute lead over the #8 Audi at one point, so the Pugs had room to gamble on fuel mileage. If the Pugs were really hammering it, they'd have been short by 1-2 laps as well. The lost track position on the part of the #8 gave them the cushion to save fuel, and the 8's understeer problem probably didn't help matters.

[henk4]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

And the F1 paved runoff areas...Even Watkins Glen as them for NASCAR.

I doubt that the fuel mileage issue is down to the drag of the R15--as I said, they had a 1 minute lead over the #8 Audi at one point, so the Pugs had room to gamble on fuel mileage. If the Pugs were really hammering it, they'd have been short by 1-2 laps as well. The lost track position on the part of the #8 gave them the cushion to save fuel, and the 8's understeer problem probably didn't help matters.

IFs don't count. The Pugs ran their six scheduled stops, and without flaws (except that the Oreca car almost left the stand with only three wheels attached to it after the very first pitstop). The Audi was slower (Why do you call that "lost track position", is it not simply the advantage gained by the Pugs?) and took more fuel....

[chernaudi]

Why would it need more fuel--the R8 or R10 were never effected by areo changes from LM to a sprint package. The #8 had understeer issues all day, and that probably burned up fuel. Also, during one stint, the #8 actually took 10 seconds out of the Pugs, and I doubt it was traffic. Pugs probably knew at the pace that they ran early that if they kept it up they would be 1-3 laps short like the #8 Audi was, so they backed off because they knew that unless something major happened, they weren't gonna blow a one minute lead, of which about 20 seconds of which was gained by Audi changing tires on the 8 after a spin, which that itself cost nearly 10 seconds.

IE, Peugeot wasn't quite as fast as one would think, as the #8 making one extra tire stop and a spin spotted Peugeot an easy 30 seconds.

[henk4]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Why would it need more fuel--the R8 or R10 were never effected by areo changes from LM to a sprint package. The #8 had understeer issues all day, and that probably burned up fuel. Also, during one stint, the #8 actually took 10 seconds out of the Pugs, and I doubt it was traffic. Pugs probably knew at the pace that they ran early that if they kept it up they would be 1-3 laps short like the #8 Audi was, so they backed off because they knew that unless something major happened, they weren't gonna blow a one minute lead, of which about 20 seconds of which was gained by Audi changing tires on the 8 after a spin, which that itself cost nearly 10 seconds.

IE, Peugeot wasn't quite as fast as one would think, as the #8 making one extra tire stop and a spin spotted Peugeot an easy 30 seconds.

wow, a lot of suppostitions there.....the Pugs were fast enough to win...which I was once told is the purpose of endurance racing. (And if understeer took additional fuel, than Audi simply had it wrong.)

[Victor_RO]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Why would it need more fuel--the R8 or R10 were never effected by areo changes from LM to a sprint package. The #8 had understeer issues all day, and that probably burned up fuel. Also, during one stint, the #8 actually took 10 seconds out of the Pugs, and I doubt it was traffic. Pugs probably knew at the pace that they ran early that if they kept it up they would be 1-3 laps short like the #8 Audi was, so they backed off because they knew that unless something major happened, they weren't gonna blow a one minute lead, of which about 20 seconds of which was gained by Audi changing tires on the 8 after a spin, which that itself cost nearly 10 seconds.

The #1 Peugeot at Le Mans ran 13-lap stints while pushing at the limit and doing 3:20-3:21 laps to make up lost time, so the fuel theory doesn't stand up. They have held the fuel consumption advantage card this year. Also, in the first stint of this race, where all three cars that eventually finished on the podium pushed as hard as possible, the #1 Peugeot matched the #8 Audi on fuel mileage and the #4 Peugeot went a lap longer than both.


In any case, even without the issues, the #8 Audi would only have been around the #4 Peugeot at the end of the race, #1 was out and gone in the lead.

[gwyllion]

@chernaudi: Check the timing pdf on the LMS website. The 2nd, 3rd and 6th stint of the #1 Peugeot were 1 lap longer than those of the #8 Audi. So your suggestion that Peugeot switched to fuel saving tactics late in the race, is incorrect. They had better fuel economy from the start of the race.

Peugeot clearly has better aero (less drag from same amount of downforce as Audi) and/or a better engine (when the engine is turned down to the same power level as Audi, it needs less fuel).

Peugeot beat Audi with better pace and better strategy (double stinting tyres from the start and saving the extra fuel stop at the end).

[henk4]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

Peugeot beat Audi with better pace and better strategy (double stinting tyres from the start and saving the extra fuel stop at the end).

The Oreca Peugeot changed tires after stint one. (probably to avoid having the two cars coming in together throughout the remainder of the race)

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by henk4

The Oreca Peugeot changed tires after stint one. (probably to avoid having the two cars coming in together throughout the remainder of the race)

Actually, they also change driver during the first stop. In fact, the Oreca team did an extra driver change:
Lapierre -> Sarrazin -> Lapierre -> Sarrazin compared to
Davidson -> Minassian -> Davidson and
Bernhard -> Capello -> Bernhard.
This gave the drivers equal driving time, but it ruined their chance of victory.