ILMC 2011 Discussion

[Simmi]

Well if Toyota opt to come back no doubt Fuji will return. The ILMC should consult with manufacturers on where they want to race but that does not mean it should crumble to their whims. It has to have established marquee races to be credible.

[I Rosputnik]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

The tail that wagged the dog.

Let's rename this PILMC.

What about LMS + 2.

The track list needs a lot of work. I would of aimed for 3 races in europe, 3 races in north america and 3 races in asia, and Le Mans as the big event.

[JAG]

Aren't we missing something here, there was always going to be a race in China, the question is where the other end of season fly-away event will be. Autosport reported last week PLM will be confirmed in early December once the China date is sorted.

Ulrich pointed out the ACO and manufactuers work together to cover each of their marketing needs.

With three races still to-be-determined on the 2011 ILMC schedule, where would the leading prototype contenders, Audi and Peugeot, like to go next year? Peugeot Sport team boss Olivier Quesnel said he’d like to see an expansion into South America and possibly a second race in China. But Audi’s Ullrich stressed that all the leading manufacturers must band together and come a consensus on where they’d like to race.

“I would say it’s very important to find a way back to China because as I’ve said before it’s one of the most important car markets in the world,” Ullrich said. “And to think motorsport is a growing plant here, and we’ll try to support it. But I think the most important thing is that we should all have the same visions. If you want races alone in South Africa, another one alone in China, America, etc, we’ll have to find a common way to go. I think it’s important to hit all of the key markets, which is the motive of this championship.”

http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/artic...tscars-119/P2/

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by JAG

Aren't we missing something here, there was always going to be a race in China, the question is where the other end of season fly-away event will be. Autosport reported last week PLM will be confirmed in early December once the China date is sorted.

Ulrich pointed out the ACO and manufactuers work together to cover each of their marketing needs.



http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/artic...tscars-119/P2/

These guys are seriously out to lunch.

[JAG]

Manufactuers are expected to build cars that rival F1 in terms of technology and expense, if the entire season rests upon success at Le Mans anyone who isn't on the top step of the podium will have difficulty justifying the program to board members.

Peugeots season could have ended in embarrassment in June, instead they have an ILMC trophy to show for their efforts and exposure in the NA and Chinese markets. It's still a far cry from Sauber Mercedes skipping Le Mans to focus on their World Championship campaign in 1990 but sportscar racing needs to race in important and emerging markets otherwise manufactuers will switch to a series that does.

[CTD]

Originally Posted by JAG

Manufactuers are expected to build cars that rival F1 in terms of technology and expense, if the entire season rests upon success at Le Mans anyone who isn't on the top step of the podium will have difficulty justifying the program to board members.

Peugeots season could have ended in embarrassment in June, instead they have an ILMC trophy to show for their efforts and exposure in the NA and Chinese markets. It's still a far cry from Sauber Mercedes skipping Le Mans to focus on their World Championship campaign in 1990 but sportscar racing needs to race in important and emerging markets otherwise manufactuers will switch to a series that does.

Pretty much spot on!.

It's easy to spot with Peugeot's almost non-excisting interest in US racing, as they have no spot in the market to enhance. Where as Audi does, and therefor has (had) interest in racing there.

[Fogelhund]

Wonderful short-term thinking, pandering to singular manufacturers. Forget building the LM brand, or strengthening existing series. LMS will be dead shortly, Henri admits as much. ALMS will be seriously affected.

Then we end up with a single World Championship, that will be campaigned by about 15-20 cars. Brilliant.

Screw (can I say that?) the pandering to the manufacturers. If a World Series is needed, then you do so that it meets the needs of the series, and promotes the long term growth of the series. You require the manufacturers to participate in one or the other of the series, and you keep the World Championship short and sweet. Two in Europe, Two in North America and Two elsewhere... ok, do the pandering in the elsewhere.

It simply amazes me that the business of the sport is so thoroughly ignored by some routinely and repetetively.

How many of the current LMS entries can afford to enter the full ILMC? Sure, I suppose they'll be allowed to race in the Euro ILMC races... the three or four, or whatever it ends up in the future. But are three races, plus LM enough to bother spending these kids of budgets on, or would it be better to just go race in FIA GT, or GT3, or the Brit series?

The interest in ILMC from the ALMS teams approaches a number close to zero, so you really could likely count most of them out.

http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/artic...tscars-1118/P2

One of the guiding principles of Don Panoz in creating the American Le Mans Series was to bring Le Mans style racing and the cars that competed in the Le Mans 24 hour race to North America. The key component to this has been the factory backed entrants in the leading LMP categories that led to the ALMS being the premier professional sports car championship in the world.

The participation AND sponsorship funding of many of these manufacturer participants, has allowed the ALMS to grow in stature and popularity in North America. The funding has allowed for television coverage, on various networks, with great reach.

Through a combination of reasons, the ALMS no longer has these factory backed entries in the Prototype categories, with 2010 seeing only one full season car that featured a full pro lineup and this was not a manufacturer entry. In 2011, we can only expect to see factory entries in ILMC races in North America.

The creation of ILMC has seen the ALMS entrants be reduced to a supporting cast, when ILMC appears at ALMS races. The best entrants are the ILMC entries, those from the ALMS being unable to keep up. Obviously the perception being that the ALMS is no longer the premier professional sports car championship, as that title now shifts to ILMC. With similar costs to compete in ILMC vs. ALMS, and ILMC being the premier series, those manufacturers with International aspirations will concentrate on ILMC. Not only does this suggest that the probability of manufacturer pro driver entries are less likely to compete in the ALMS in the future, but the budgets that have paid for TV coverage have been greatly reduced as well. With a reduced TV budget, you run the risk of having to move coverage to networks that are in fewer households.

With conflicting schedules between ILMC and ALMS in 2011, it isn`t possible for entrants to compete in both series, unless they have enough cars and equipment to have duplicates on both sides of the ocean. In this economy, that just isn`t going to happen.

With the introduction of ILMC, we have seen that spectators are now making the choice to attend these ILMC events over races that are often closer to their homes. Only ILMC has those cars now, that the ALMS used to have and was formed `For the Fans`. While this will be a benefit to those races that are ILMC races, those that are now `Have nots` may very well see their attendance drop over time, as they just don’t have the cars that draw the fans. With this devaluation of the worth of hosting an ALMS race, the sanction fees that the ALMS receives from these tracks will come under pressure.

Yes, ILMC is a threat to the ALMS. It has given the manufacturers the ability to run in a championship, without having to commit to either the LMS or ALMS. Without these manufacturers in the ALMS, the series will lose sponsor revenue, face potential sanction fee reduction and lower attendance at non-ILMC races. It is no longer the premier sportscar championship, and the value of participation for manufacturers has been eroded. I believe that the role of the ACO should be growing and strengthening the Le Mans franchise globally, not weakening it.

Jean-Claude Plassart, President of the Automobile Club de l'Ouest, ACO Press release 09/09/2010:

“It is indeed a new chapter for endurance racing. Based on very best and strongest established traditional events in each of our series 'LE MANS' in the world (LMS in Europe, ALMS in North America and Asian LMS in Asia), manufacturers and their partners now need a playing field that spans the world, and the ILMC meets that objective. Large manufacturers can show their skills and teams who want to reach an international level can confront the worlds best in these major races...”

As Plassart states, the ACO has provided an International Series so that the manufacturers don’t have to run in the regional series. It should be noted that the ALMS asked for a rule that stated that ILMC participants be required to in one of the regional series. That idea, in all of it’s particulars, was dismissed. Both the ACO, and ILMC have become threats, at least in my opinion, to what many fans of the this form of racing in North America had grown to expect. While Petit Le Mans would be a better race as an ILMC event, the cost of IMSA partnering the ALMS with the ILMC will be a deterioration of the ALMS itself. Fans want to see manufacturer entries, with professional drivers fighting for overall victories, not racing dominated by gentleman drivers, or spec categories.

We should recognize and accept the ACO and ILMC for what they have become. They are now direct competitors for the ALMS.
-Brett Harrington

[carsten66]

Reading the Plassart stuff... maybe I'm wrong but that doesn't sound very kindly... and also looks like they are using every trick to undermine the ALMS position...

[Simmi]

Originally Posted by carsten66

Reading the Plassart stuff... maybe I'm wrong but that doesn't sound very kindly... and also looks like they are using every trick to undermine the ALMS position...

That's not really the impression I get from what he has been saying. The ILMC, done right, is a superb idea. It's a global platform. It is unrealistic to expect teams to run both the ALMS and the ILMC. It would require multiple chassis and more money than sense. So I don't see how that request to run that plus a regional series is feasible. Surely it was asked for out of fear the ALMS would lose its bigger teams.

I don't see what position it is in to be undermined? Sebring should be one of the greatest collections of cars in years. Petit is all still up in the air. Granted the test day is a slap in the face. Big manufacturer teams by in large aren't interested in a season-long campaign in the US. But they want a broader reach than the LMS. Go do the ILMC. It is a work in progress and I hope the foundations this year and next will be attractive to new teams.

[TF110]

Who runs in ALMS that does ILMC? How many teams? Not many at all right now, so why would it change? What Panoz is saying just seems to confirm that. Weve got ALMS, and many don't want to race ILMC because it might conflict with the races over here (U.S.). I'm all for international racing, but I doubt it'll affect the ALMS, it's not like they rely on Peugeot and Audi anyway! In reality, it to me seems like GTE is where it's at in ALMS, the only team in Prototype categories that is really considered anything close to factory backed is the Honda team. And that's a stretch! ALMS has two events on it's calendar that attracts the 'big' guys. I don't see anything happening to ALMS since it's currently doing what it's doing without them anyway.

[JAG]

The World Sportscar Championship ran for 40 odd years in parallel with a thriving NA sportscar scene and series like Can-Am and IMSA GTP.

Slowly but surely prototype racing has developed in Europe but after 2008 it was clear the LMS wasn't meeting manufactuers needs. Audi had the chance to return to the ALMS but chose not to, Peugeot have limited interests in NA so only Sebring and PLM are of interest.

For European competitors a core of European races and a handful of fly-away events isn't a huge deal, it happens in the WRC, WTCC and now FIA GT. It's increasingly obvious manufactuers and sponsors want to reach out to emerging markets.

Much of the above doesn't apply to ALMS competitors because, well, they don't need to travel outside NA. It's a huge market for all concerned and should be equivalent in size and stature to the ILMC, afterall this is a region that single handedly supports billion dollar sports like NASCAR, the NFL and NBA.

If the ACO had not addressed manufactuers needs we could be sat here bemaoning Audi, Peugeot and Aston Martin pulling out of the sport altogether.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by Simmi

That's not really the impression I get from what he has been saying. The ILMC, done right, is a superb idea. It's a global platform. It is unrealistic to expect teams to run both the ALMS and the ILMC. It would require multiple chassis and more money than sense. So I don't see how that request to run that plus a regional series is feasible. Surely it was asked for out of fear the ALMS would lose its bigger teams.

I don't see what position it is in to be undermined? Sebring should be one of the greatest collections of cars in years. Petit is all still up in the air. Granted the test day is a slap in the face. Big manufacturer teams by in large aren't interested in a season-long campaign in the US. But they want a broader reach than the LMS. Go do the ILMC. It is a work in progress and I hope the foundations this year and next will be attractive to new teams.

The idea that you would need multiple chassis to run ALMS and ILMC is ridiculous. How do teams manage to run at LM and ALMS now without multiple chassis?

No big manufacturers in Prototypes in the ALMS = eventual death of ALMS.

This was a planned approach, to poach the manufacturers and their dollars to an ACO run series instead of ALMS.

If the ALMS dies, do PLM and Sebring become ILMC stand alone events, or does Grand Am take them over?

I suppose this is a North America vs. Europe thing. The manufacturers never really had interest in an LMS, and now you've got them, and can call this a World Championship. This is likely the death of our series, so we aren't too happy about it.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by TF110

Who runs in ALMS that does ILMC? How many teams? Not many at all right now, so why would it change? What Panoz is saying just seems to confirm that. Weve got ALMS, and many don't want to race ILMC because it might conflict with the races over here (U.S.). I'm all for international racing, but I doubt it'll affect the ALMS, it's not like they rely on Peugeot and Audi anyway! In reality, it to me seems like GTE is where it's at in ALMS, the only team in Prototype categories that is really considered anything close to factory backed is the Honda team. And that's a stretch! ALMS has two events on it's calendar that attracts the 'big' guys. I don't see anything happening to ALMS since it's currently doing what it's doing without them anyway.

Short-term thinking.

If there were no ILMC, would Audi have chosen to run in ALMS?

Would new manufacturers choose to run in ILMC or ALMS? If there was no ILMC, they would choose ALMS....

Yes, the ALMS did rely on Audi in the past. Yes, they NEED the manufacturer entries and budgets to survive long-term.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by JAG

The World Sportscar Championship ran for 40 odd years in parallel with a thriving NA sportscar scene and series like Can-Am and IMSA GTP.

... different rules than the World Sportscar Championship... NA has Grand Am....

Slowly but surely prototype racing has developed in Europe but after 2008 it was clear the LMS wasn't meeting manufactuers needs. Audi had the chance to return to the ALMS but chose not to, Peugeot have limited interests in NA so only Sebring and PLM are of interest.

Audi had a choice to go elsewhere... had they not, they would likely be in ALMS.

Much of the above doesn't apply to ALMS competitors because, well, they don't need to travel outside NA. It's a huge market for all concerned and should be equivalent in size and stature to the ILMC, afterall this is a region that single handedly supports billion dollar sports like NASCAR, the NFL and NBA.

If the ACO had not addressed manufactuers needs we could be sat here bemaoning Audi, Peugeot and Aston Martin pulling out of the sport altogether.

No manufacturer entries in ALMS protos means it has nothing near the stature of the ILMC. The reality is that the ALMS is on the decline because of it. This has nothing to do with ACO addressing the manufacturers needs, and everything to do with money, and who gets it.

You do realize that ACO maintains marketing and TV rights for ALL ILMC events right?

[Mal]

But it was the manufacturers that were pushing the ACO for the world series. If this had not happened they would have been more likely to move their money into other categories than ALMS as they wanted to get to markets such as China with a high profile series.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by Mal

But it was the manufacturers that were pushing the ACO for the world series. If this had not happened they would have been more likely to move their money into other categories than ALMS as they wanted to get to markets such as China with a high profile series.

What are the high profile categories, that race in markets such as China?

Of course it was the manufacturers pushing, and it was the ACO pandering and looking for the dollars.

When you pander looking for short-term gain, it almost always costs you in the end. The ACO is looking after their own interest, their own revenue, and mostly looking out to protect the 24.

As a North American, it is plain to see that the ACO doesn't have the interest of ALMS, is in competition with them, and we would be better off charting our own course, including throwing the ILMC races off the continent.

[I Rosputnik]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

As a North American, it is plain to see that the ACO doesn't have the interest of ALMS, is in competition with them, and we would be better off charting our own course, including throwing the ILMC races off the continent.

To be honest I wouldn't be suprised if that happens with the ALMS becoming something else and the LMS and AsLMS fading away. Right now the calander for the ILMC looks like a glorified LMS series.

[Speed-King]

Looks like it was a major mistake for ALMS to stop their international expansion in the early 2000s.... their schedule from 2000 looks pretty much like a reverse ILMC.

[JAG]

The entire sport is built around the 24hrs, Audi would be long gone if Peugeot hadn't arrived on the scene.

There is now a global platform that will attract and retain manufactuers for season long, multi-year campaigns. The likes of Toyota turning up with the GT-ONE for one race per year before pulling out isn't good for the sport.

Despite this the North American market is too big and too important to ignore, the GT2 field proves this so there is no reason not to expect manufactuers to support P1 once new cars come on stream and the economy picks up.

In addition the much maligned LMPC and GTC field is developing, LMPC teams in particular have made a clear investment in the ALMS and you would think have plans beyond this spec class.

In short I don't see the ILMC or a few years in the doldrums for the ALMS as the begining of the end.

[Mal]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

What are the high profile categories, that race in markets such as China?

Of course it was the manufacturers pushing, and it was the ACO pandering and looking for the dollars.

When you pander looking for short-term gain, it almost always costs you in the end. The ACO is looking after their own interest, their own revenue, and mostly looking out to protect the 24.

As a North American, it is plain to see that the ACO doesn't have the interest of ALMS, is in competition with them, and we would be better off charting our own course, including throwing the ILMC races off the continent.

Why shouldn't the ACO pander - all business should look after and listen to its customers just as the ALMS should be for its customers.

[Simmi]

I get the frustration about the ALMS. I just don't see how the ILMC is a "rival" per se. I don't see any evidence thus far to show it is stealing entries away. In contrast it brings potentially HUGE entry lists so Sebring, and I'm still not convinced the PLM link-up is dead. That gives a much needed injection of interest to the ALMS.

Who exactly are these teams who are going to choose the ILMC over a campaign beating themselves in the ALMS? I just don't see it quite frankly. The ALMS should be happy as it looks like retaining its premier squads for next year. I'd say the ILMC is the least of it's problems.

[NaBUru38]

Originally Posted by JAG

after 2008 it was clear the LMS wasn't meeting manufactuers needs. Audi had the chance to return to the ALMS but chose not to, Peugeot have limited interests in NA so only Sebring and PLM are of interest.

Exactly. It's the manufacturers who pushed for the ILMC. The ACO agreed to accept their request to go to Asia. Audi didn't want to run a North American works prototype programme, therefore they didn't run one. There's nothing IMSA could have done to prevent it. Now they have 30+ cars, so their goal must be to keep them and get more. If they can attract major European and Asian teams to one to three special races, even better.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by Simmi

I get the frustration about the ALMS. I just don't see how the ILMC is a "rival" per se. I don't see any evidence thus far to show it is stealing entries away. In contrast it brings potentially HUGE entry lists so Sebring, and I'm still not convinced the PLM link-up is dead. That gives a much needed injection of interest to the ALMS.

Who exactly are these teams who are going to choose the ILMC over a campaign beating themselves in the ALMS? I just don't see it quite frankly. The ALMS should be happy as it looks like retaining its premier squads for next year. I'd say the ILMC is the least of it's problems.

Manufacturers pay the bills, at least LMP manufacturers. The reason there will (likely) be a downgrade in the TV, is there isn't enough money to maintain status quo.

When Porsche, Acura and Audi left (nothing to do with ILMC), a large part of the income went away.

I keep saying, stop thinking short-term.

ILMC, as Plessart states, was created for the manufacturers, to attract manufacturers and their money. It is an additional choice. A manufacturer looks at going LM racing, they can choose between ILMC and ALMS... therefore ILMC and ALMS are in competition for those entries, and their sponsor dollars.

It is easy to speculate that Audi would not have raced in NA this year, but it is nothing but speculation. We don't know if they would have, or wouldn't have if there was no ILMC. What we do know, is that Audi NA didn't think there was value in paying for a full ALMS campaign, when they could just piggy back off of Audi AG, who are likely paying for Audi to show up at the biggest (two?) race(s) in North America.

Who exactly would be these future teams/manufacturers? This forum seems to talk alot about Toyota. Would they choose to run in ILMC or ALMS... isn't that competition?

People should realize that the ALMS is a business. At some point, a lack of revenue causes businesses to fail, fold, or be sold off. Without factory entry in the ALMS premier class, sponsor revenue drops, attendance drops, sanction fees drop. I appreciate that the woes of the ALMS are not all caused by ILMC, but the ACO very much knew they were creating competition, at a difficult time for the ALMS.

So what if Sebring and PLM have huge entry lists? Fan attendance cannot increase much at either event, maybe marginally, and the rest of the races suffer because of it. Fewer people want to watch races with a bunch of privateer gentleman run entries and spec cars in the first few classes.

So, think beyond what you think you have seen so far. Yes, they are rivals, as both want and need the sponsors money. The sponsors have choices, that is competition. ILMC isn't their only problem, that much I agree, but it is a major problem going forward.

If people cannot understand they are in competition, or that the ALMS needs that manufacturer revenue, there isn't much purpose in me trying to explain it further. The main point, why create something that makes entering the ALMS less attractive for manufacturers? Understand that the ALMS is a business.

Mal - I appreciate your point. The ACO putting themselves in direct competition weakens the ACO ILMC races in North America, long term. It reduces the sustainability of the ACO based series globally. It also destabalizes all of ACO type competition.

[JAG]

ILMC, as Plessart states, was created for the manufacturers, to attract manufacturers and their money. It is an additional choice. A manufacturer looks at going LM racing, they can choose between ILMC and ALMS... therefore ILMC and ALMS are in competition for those entries, and their sponsor dollars.

Audi are at the heart of this discussion but they are far from the norm, they have a history of switching between the DTM, IMSA GTO/U, WRC, Pikes Peak, ALMS, LMS, ILMC etc.

Most manufactuers fall into the category of Peugeot and Corvette, Peugeot aren't going to race full-time in NA, Corvette wouldn't race in Europe.

In the case of Toyota a project which originates from Cologne is likely destined for the ILMC, if TRD were involved the ALMS would be the focus.

The ideal scenario is an ALMS focused program supplies cars to ILMC teams and vice versa.

[Tim the Grey]

I'm still trying to get my head round ALMS and ILMC being in the same category?
ALMS and LMS were the Merkin and Euro series.
ILMC has put a cherry on BOTH cakes, AFAICS? And is PARALLEL to BOTH. It doesn't replace, or compete with, either series?
I have no idea why PLM has dropped off, as it most certainly should be on the ILMC schedule.

As said elsewhere above, there have always been series with more cars than others. Hell, for 4 years Audi didn't race in LMS, just ALMS, and did we ***** about it?