ILMC 2011 Discussion

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by Tim the Grey

I'm still trying to get my head round ALMS and ILMC being in the same category?
ALMS and LMS were the Merkin and Euro series.
ILMC has put a cherry on BOTH cakes, AFAICS? And is PARALLEL to BOTH. It doesn't replace, or compete with, either series?
I have no idea why PLM has dropped off, as it most certainly should be on the ILMC schedule.

As said elsewhere above, there have always been series with more cars than others. Hell, for 4 years Audi didn't race in LMS, just ALMS, and did we ***** about it?

Have you read my prior posts? You do realize that ALMS is a business that needs revenues and factory entries and dollars. If you can't see how two businesses, in the same market, for the same dollars aren't competitors, I can't really help you further.

[Simmi]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

Have you read my prior posts? You do realize that ALMS is a business that needs revenues and factory entries and dollars. If you can't see how two businesses, in the same market, for the same dollars aren't competitors, I can't really help you further.

I think people are struggling to grasp why in 2011 a manufacturer would choose to run against no one in the ALMS rather than do the ILMC. In that sense they aren't rivals because they offer vastly differing levels of competition.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by Simmi

I think people are struggling to grasp why in 2011 a manufacturer would choose to run against no one in the ALMS rather than do the ILMC. In that sense they aren't rivals because they offer vastly differing levels of competition.

You've just stated why they are competitors going after the same dollars and entries!!

Having one as a better choice, doesn't eliminate that they are competitors for the same entries... and therefore dollars.

[cmk]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

Have you read my prior posts? You do realize that ALMS is a business that needs revenues and factory entries and dollars. If you can't see how two businesses, in the same market, for the same dollars aren't competitors, I can't really help you further.

I'm going to guess that the average poster does not understand the degree to which the heyday of the ALMS existed on the back of substantial manufacturer funding (beyond paying for the cars and teams themselves). When that is clear, it should be equally crystal that what you are saying is the truth. It is deeply problematic for those of us who would like to see sportscar racing in North America that is as strong as the best years of the ALMS were.

[LeMans.pt]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

Have you read my prior posts? You do realize that ALMS is a business that needs revenues and factory entries and dollars. If you can't see how two businesses, in the same market, for the same dollars aren't competitors, I can't really help you further.

And the LMS is what?
C'mon... this kind of "my series is more important than yours" is starting to be very ridiculous!

Let's resolve this by shutting down the LMS and the ILMC so you (some), americans, can have all the great Le Mans (damn... you can't can buy the damn frog land and ship it to the states) races on your backyard! That would be nice, no? That would really put a smile on your face!

Now more seriously... i don't agree with Petit Le Mans beeing out of the ILMC but, a global series is the best way to have the Le Mans kind of race, and all it's best pilots and teams travelling arround the globe with all the its magic to a global audience of fans, not just for a few.

Why don't IMSA just do their own set of rules? It's seems like IMSA has to obey in some way to the ACO. If the ACO is such a bad thing, just demand that IMSA makes their own championship (forget the Le Mans badge... do IMSA pay for it?), and may the best win!

[JAG]

Manufactuers spent big in 2008 in both the LMS and ALMS but stated their dissatisfaction with the marketing return particularly in Europe. The financial crisis followed and the fallout was manufacturers wanting to pick and choose the best races worldwide.

The LMS may be absored wholly by the ILMC while the ALMS has to hope more manufacturers see the value in the series Corvette do in addition to building up a strong privateer field.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by LeMans.pt

And the LMS is what?
C'mon... this kind of "my series is more important than yours" is starting to be very ridiculous!

Let's resolve this by shutting down the LMS and the ILMC so you (some), americans, can have all the great Le Mans (damn... you can't can buy the damn frog land and ship it to the states) races on your backyard! That would be nice, no? That would really put a smile on your face!

You couldn't be further from reality from these thoughts. Not once was anything such as this insinuated, and you are quite far off base. There have been no comments about the LMS at all. Your comments are another failure to understand how this business works, despite it being pointed out rather blantantly several times. If you take away someone's source of income, how do they survive?

[LeMans.pt]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

You couldn't be further from reality from these thoughts. Not once was anything such as this insinuated, and you are quite far off base. There have been no comments about the LMS at all. Your comments are another failure to understand how this business works, despite it being pointed out rather blantantly several times. If you take away someone's source of income, how do they survive?

Thank you for making me laughing out loud...

In 2004, when the LMS started, many of you, on the that side of the Atlantic saw it as an attack to the ALMS. Now, with the ILMC, is the same thing.

The LMS, like the ALMS, is business, and like the business it is, it needs to have assets that create capital. With no factory teams involved, the fans and sponsors have no interest in the series, and with no fans and no sponsors: no money! Economy 101...

The fact is that the LMS never had the means to grow up like the ALMS, and rapidly was consider not to be a threat to the ALMS hegemony! Bad Luck! The ILMC is! The factory teams want it, the fans want it (besides some north-americans that can't see as far as their nationalistic ego), and Le Mans racing has all to win with a new global series like the old World Sports Car Championship.

Yout insinuations are very clear: a strong global series (ILMC) is the death of the ALMS. A weak or non-existent ILMC is a strong and sustainable ALMS. Bad Luck once again... in this side of the atlantic we will NOT renounce to have a strong global series so you can have all of it just in your land! We deserve to see full factory commitment here in Europe ans much as you deserve on North-America, or someone else in other continent.

What makes you think that a national series like the ALMS is more important than some other series?

In this side of the atlantic, we will NOT be satisfy by having just one race a year with the best teams and drivers of the Le Mans type of endurance racing.

Its not a question of understating or not. Obviously that the ALMS needs factory entries and factory money, has much has ANYONE ELSE, but what you are expecting is that someone says: Yes you are right. Let's save the ALMS. No more ILMC or LMS... let's watch the races trough Motors TV and let the NA have them all...

Failure of understating? LOL...

[LeMans.pt]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

I suppose this is a North America vs. Europe thing

Like i said... i understood you loud and clear!

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by LeMans.pt

Thank you for making me laughing out loud...

In 2004, when the LMS started, many of you, on the that side of the Atlantic saw it as an attack to the ALMS. Now, with the ILMC, is the same thing.

Let's not generalize, by saying many of you. I've always though the LMS was a good idea, and if you've read my posts in this thread, you'll see the same. I strongly believe that the regional series need to be the strength. I believe that participation in ILMC should have been only allowed with the provision of full participation in either the LMS or ALMS. Make the regional series stronger first.

Weakening them to the point of perhaps extinction does nothing positive to the ACO style of racing, and frankly is stupidity. Should Grand Am be running at Sebring and Road Atlanta in a few years, with no ILMC in North America, will the manufacturers be satisfied they've basically gone back to LMS with a different name?... I think we know that answer.

The LMS, like the ALMS, is business, and like the business it is, it needs to have assets that create capital. With no factory teams involved, the fans and sponsors have no interest in the series, and with no fans and no sponsors: no money! Economy 101...

The fact is that the LMS never had the means to grow up like the ALMS, and rapidly was consider not to be a threat to the ALMS hegemony! Bad Luck! The ILMC is! The factory teams want it, the fans want it (besides some north-americans that can't see as far as their nationalistic ego), and Le Mans racing has all to win with a new global series like the old World Sports Car Championship.

Yout insinuations are very clear: a strong global series (ILMC) is the death of the ALMS. A weak or non-existent ILMC is a strong and sustainable ALMS. Bad Luck once again... in this side of the atlantic we will NOT renounce to have a strong global series so you can have all of it just in your land! We deserve to see full factory commitment here in Europe ans much as you deserve on North-America, or someone else in other continent.

What makes you think that a national series like the ALMS is more important than some other series?

In this side of the atlantic, we will NOT be satisfy by having just one race a year with the best teams and drivers of the Le Mans type of endurance racing.

Its not a question of understating or not. Obviously that the ALMS needs factory entries and factory money, has much has ANYONE ELSE, but what you are expecting is that someone says: Yes you are right. Let's save the ALMS. No more ILMC or LMS... let's watch the races trough Motors TV and let the NA have them all...

Failure of understating? LOL...

I agree that the ALMS is no more important than the other regional series. ILMC ceases to be, should there be no more races in North America.

[ubrben]

I think all of this is a shame. The ALMS should be applauded for what it's done over the past decade. Without the ALMS and Petit Le Mans we would have had no LMS and ILMC wouldn't have happened.

ALMS definitely relied on manufacturer involvement and if this is no longer there they need to adapt. The green thing is a big mistake - they're gambling on manufacturers wanting to show how green they are, further alienating private teams who can't afford the tech, or who don't want to adapt their business model of being race teams to becoming environmental evangelists.

LMS has always had a small calander of long races and was therefore inherently suited to privateers - good bang for the buck in terms of track time = happy gent drivers. A six hour LMS round means 2 hours each for 3 gents. A 2hr 45m ALMS round doesn't bring as much cash in for a privateer team, but they have to spend the same in fixed costs for a 3 day race event.

2008 was a classic LMS year for me and that (plus Le Mans) was:

Barcelona
Monza
Spa
Le Mans 24 hours
Nurburgring
Silverstone

If we had an ALMS season something like:

Sebring
Long Beach (single short race for PR)
Mosport
Road America
Mid Ohio
Laguna
Petit Le Mans

And then ILMC could be:

Sebring
Spa
Le Mans 24 hours
Silverstone
Petit Le Mans
Asia 1 (I'd go for Sepang)
Asia 2 (I'd go for Suzuka)

The key for me is that the domestic series need to be privateer friendly for a manufacturer world championship to be viable, and for ALMS this mean longer races, but less of them - quality not quantity.

I think you'd get many more competitors if you said LMS and ALMS were petrol only series. Simple equalisation (or no equalisation) in prototype would make it easier for teams to justify budgets.

ILMC could then be the arena for factories and new tech.

Ben

[JAG]

The ALMS had an opportunity to go global in the early 2000's but pulled the plug after the 2001 ELMS season.

It was a short sighted decision as I believe even a scaled back ELMS as in 2000 would have been welcomed. The ALMS would have remained the dominant force but the European sportscar scene would have had their piece of the pie with a couple of rounds, it would have been the ILMC is reverse.

That's what could have been, these days the ALMS is recovering after throwing it's lot in with manufactuers and neglecting (IMO) privateers. The LMPC and GTC classes shouldn't be seen only as grid fillers but as an investment in P1/P2/GTE in future years much in the same way the LMS/ILMC benefits from teams graduating from series like British GT.

Expectations may have to be lowered for a season or two but with a strong foundation of privateers and good racing more manufactuers will return, and unlike the LMS the series is well postitioned to take advantage of any upsurge in interest

Simply saying this is how it was, this is how it always has to be isn't going to work.

[KingKenny04]

Hiya all, first time poster

I dont understand all the regional series rivalry going on here. I always figured the point of the regional series was to strengthen and develop Le Mans style racing year-round for teams based in their respective regions. Why do they have to be competitors? And the ILMC? They're simply cherry-picking select ALMS and LMS events aren't they? As long as there's no scheduling conflicts between the two series, I don't see how it "competes" with the ALMS. If anything it brings entries, viewers, and money to the ALMS. I think it's a great idea.

I'll agree that losing Petit and the possible scheduling conflict with the Road America event are horrible tragedies on the part of the ACO, but I still think the ILMC is something that should be expanded as the economy picks back up.

Just for kicks, here's my ideal ILMC schedule:
-Sebring
-[South America]
-Spa
-Le Mans
-Silverstone
-Petit
-Fuji
-Sepang
-[Australia]

Why South America and Australia? Having the series on five continents makes it eligible for FIA "World Championship" status. WSCC revival, anyone?

[Speed-King]

You actually only need 3 continents for a world championship status...

[CTD]

Welcome Kenny.
the problem with the "World Championship" name is that the series has to be under the FIA control too, which ACO doesn't want! (FIA + Le Mans = BAD THINGS!)

[NightStalk3r]

FIA + anything = BAD THINGS!

[CTD]

Originally Posted by NightStalk3r

FIA + anything = BAD THINGS!

True

[Simmi]

Can they call it a World Sportscar Cup without requiring the FIA? Or World Sportscar Challenge? There is a lot of marketing benefit with being able to crown a world champion.

[NaBUru38]

Originally Posted by KingKenny04

Just for kicks, here's my ideal ILMC schedule:
-Sebring
-[South America]
-Spa
-Le Mans
-Silverstone
-Petit
-Fuji
-Sepang
-[Australia]

South America := Potrero de los Funes, Argentina
Australia := Phillip Island

Welcome to Ten-Tenths, Kenny!

[Mal]

Try This:

http://www.endurance-info.com/versio...ance-5745.html

PLM back in plus 6 hours at Imola!

[Simmi]

Obviously it would depend on whether the countries in question were potential car markets for those involved. That seems to be the way this is going.

I know Peugeot wanted a race in South America. I can't imagine either are too fussed about Australia...

[I Rosputnik]

That's better, good to see Petit Le Mans back on the Calander. If I was the ACO, I would push to have two more races in the Pacific and maybe a race in either Canada or South America.

I hope this championship goes well.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by Mal

Try This:

http://www.endurance-info.com/versio...ance-5745.html

PLM back in plus 6 hours at Imola!

More on http://www.lemans.org/en/races/inter...2011_2459.html

[JAG]

Originally Posted by CTD

Welcome Kenny.
the problem with the "World Championship" name is that the series has to be under the FIA control too, which ACO doesn't want! (FIA + Le Mans = BAD THINGS!)

There was an EU ruling some time back which means the FIA can't control commercial rights and such, they only act as a governing body.

In the latter years of Group C the season reviews dried up because the FIA/Bernie charged too much for the rights.

[R4z3rw33n]

So all that time supposedly spent debating PLM's inclusion was posturing after all. Nice to see Imola included, but a Japanese race would have been nice.

Roll on 2011!