[WEC] FIA World Endurance Championship

[JAG]

And Obama's planning a $53 billion arms deal with Bahrain.........just goes to show how politics, business and sport and interwined.

[Acid09]

Originally Posted by Simmi

Keep the Petit date exactly where it is.

I really don't see what effect it should have on the PLM. If Bahrain is canceled there's:

a) a replacement round

or

b) no replacement round and the PLM is still not part of the WEC. That means very few if any of the WEC teams will do the trip, most European teams were already reluctant to do the PLM when there were championship points at stake...

The ACO has made it clear that they don't want the PLM to be part of the WEC due to the fact that the track isn't able to handle the amount of traffic and the cautions having too much effect on the race outcome.

None of this will change whether or not Bahrain actually happens. So I really don't see the connection.

[fieldodreams79]

There should be a connection between an unstable country with a boring circuit and scheduled event that is in jeopardy to a large sports car market county with a proven and growing event that WILL take place regardless of happens in Bahrain and the WEC.

But what do I know? The ACO know what they're doing...

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by Acid09

The ACO has made it clear that they don't want the PLM to be part of the WEC due to the fact that the track isn't able to handle the amount of traffic and the cautions having too much effect on the race outcome.

Sebring had longer and much more annoying yellow flag periods than PLM this year. Also while the cautions can admittely effect the outcome of the race a bit too much I still found the NA style to be better than the insanely stupid ACO way of handling cautions, ie multiple safety cars and then someone gets raped in the ass by organizers when they have to pit and aren't allowed to rejoin until the next SC line passes by.

The density of the cars can be problematic @ RA but that's part of the game. Zhuhai, Interlagos and Fuji are only a few hundred meters longer and the only reason you aren't complaining about the length of those tracks is because WEC alone will never get a full field of cars like it would do with joint ALMS/LMS event.

When the Bahrain event gets cancelled and if ACO still foolishly ignores PLM, I'm 100% certain that we will see more European entries. Even both of your precious diesel teams made the trip when the race was not part of their championships (like 2009).

[Acid09]

Originally Posted by Chiana

When the Bahrain event gets cancelled and if ACO still foolishly ignores PLM, I'm 100% certain that we will see more European entries. Even both of your precious diesel teams made the trip when the race was not part of their championships (like 2009).

Yes, but that was back when there was no proper championship and the PLM was one of the few major events outside Le Mans. Times have changed...

The number of big teams taking the risk to damage their cars in the PLM where they can clinch zero WEC points will be pretty low, especially for the teams that still have chances to win the championship in their class.

While Audi would maybe do it if Audi NA pays the bills, there's no way Peugeot will show up. They have zero marketing interest in NA and the only reason they did the PLM in the past was because it was either a) part of a championship or b) before that one of the few chances to race Audi

Now that there's a full championship for them to race each other, the PLM has lost a lot of its appeal. It simply makes no sense to put your car through a 10hr race that scores you no points while being involved in a major championship.

If Bahrain is cancelled we may see an additional 4-6 cars (possibly Audi), that's it.

[Somatosis]

I can see a bit of a swing towards safety and logistics for WEC and (unfortunately) the odd sound reason against including PLM. HOWEVER, the excitement I have felt for this one-time fledgeling event has never faded, even from a distance of 10,000 miles or so (16,307 if I was Charley Boorman). In its defence I would therefore like to say.............

Originally Posted by Chiana

Sebring had longer and much more annoying yellow flag periods than PLM this year. Also while the cautions can admittely effect the outcome of the race a bit too much I still found the NA style to be better than the insanely stupid ACO way of handling cautions, ie multiple safety cars and then someone gets raped in the ass by organizers when they have to pit and aren't allowed to rejoin until the next SC line passes by.

The density of the cars can be problematic @ RA but that's part of the game.

AND

Originally Posted by fieldodreams79

There should be a connection between an unstable country with a boring circuit and scheduled event that is in jeopardy to a large sports car market county with a proven and growing event that WILL take place regardless of happens in Bahrain and the WEC.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by Acid09

that was back when there was no proper championship and the PLM was one of the few major events outside Le Mans. Times have changed...

ALMS and LMS weren't proper championships? You know, those series that once had both of them heavily involved?

Times have changed and PLM is still one of the major endurance events, it's just the ignorance of FIA/ACO that's making it more difficult.

While Audi would maybe do it if Audi NA pays the bills, there's no way Peugeot will show up. They have zero marketing interest in NA and the only reason they did the PLM in the past was because it was either a) part of a championship or b) before that one of the few chances to race Audi

-- It simply makes no sense to put your car through a 10hr race that scores you no points while being involved in a major championship.

Well lets look at 2008 for example. Pug had fought against Audi at Le Mans (which they lost), Sebring (which they lost), full series of LMS (which they lost) and then they both went to RA. Why did Peugeot go to such place after competing against Audi all season long and that didn't offer them any championship points, especially if it really is the worst possible market place for them? I don't think they were happy about the P2s either.

Conquering PLM is more than just winning a regular round, the event has heritage.

[JAG]

Don't see what the issue is TBH, if PLM is the draw claimed, it will attract bonus entries regardless, just as Daytona and Sebring do. WEC entries aren't going to be turned away from a WEC round beyond 2012, that being the case Road Atlanta is ruled out for a joint event, I'm guessing the fuss would be even greater if it became WEC only.

The bigger question is what happens to Sebring, does it become WEC only, muddle through as a joint event, or does the WEC go to Daytona, Austin, Montreal, Watkins Glen or wherever?

All of the points raised only become an issue if both series can realistically host these big races as standalone events, that's a good problem to have.

[Acid09]

Originally Posted by Chiana

ALMS and LMS weren't proper championships? You know, those series that once had both of them heavily involved?

Times have changed and PLM is still one of the major endurance events, it's just the ignorance of FIA/ACO that's making it more difficult.

Well lets look at 2008 for example. Pug had fought against Audi at Le Mans (which they lost), Sebring (which they lost), full series of LMS (which they lost) and then they both went to RA. Why did Peugeot go to such place after competing against Audi all season long and that didn't offer them any championship points, especially if it really is the worst possible market place for them? I don't think they were happy about the P2s either.

Conquering PLM is more than just winning a regular round, the event has heritage.

You talked about 2009 and back then neither of them were involved in the ALMS or LMS but only did selected rounds, including the PLM.

There's no ignorance, the PLM simply doesn't fit in the WEC as long as it's an ALMS event. The ACO has explained why, I really don't see why it's so hard to understand their position.

Regarding 2008, yes, Peugeot did the PLM because they wanted to race Audi pretty much regardless where and back then the PLM didn't clash with anything. The LMS season was over, there was no reason not to do it. But this year there are plenty of reasons, the most important one being that the PLM is scheduled in the closing stages of the WEC... no sensible team is going to risk their cars in a non-points event, not even speaking of the costs involved.

Yes, it has heritage, but not enough for WEC entries to waste their shot at a World Championship title (!!) by competing in a non-points round.

The way I see it, the only thing that can save the PLM as a major international race is by it becoming a WEC-only round, which is most likely what will happen to Sebring as well.

[Fogelhund]

Frankly, I doubt Sebring becomes a WEC only round. The WEC if it wishes to continue to race in North America, will have to find their own round.

[Acid09]

I think it depends on the state of both series. If the WEC really does start out with 40 entries this year and is able to expand on that next year and the ALMS demise continues then the Sebring organizers will have a hard choice to make..

Would it really be wise to have a 12hr race with that much legacy run by a field of largely amateur drivers in spec machinery while the professional world championship packed with works efforts and pro drivers races somewhere else?

Dosen't really sound smart...

[AGD]

Originally Posted by Simmi

Going from bad to worse in Bahrain today. Villages being bombarded with tear gas by riot police. A 16-year-old boy reportedly in critical condition. Bad times and not a happy New Year for that country.

Keep the Petit date exactly where it is.

I'm not really sure how Bahrain getting canceled helps Petit at this juncture. It's the closeness of Fuji that is hurting Petit right now. Granted, it's still better than the past situation with a direct date conflict, but if Bahrain gets canceled, the old schedule may have been better.

Either way, I don't think PLM is getting on the WEC schedule for a number of reasons. There may be logistical problems with the car count, but most of all I think the ACO simply does not want PLM on the schedule. Not as long as the ALMS exists anyway.

Originally Posted by JAG

And Obama's planning a $53 billion arms deal with Bahrain.........just goes to show how politics, business and sport and interwined.

Bahrain = Saudi Arabia in many ways and that is why the US does business with Bahrain. Anyway, just because the US government does business with someone does not validate their political situation.

Originally Posted by fieldodreams79

There should be a connection between an unstable country with a boring circuit and scheduled event that is in jeopardy to a large sports car market county with a proven and growing event that WILL take place regardless of happens in Bahrain and the WEC.

But what do I know? The ACO know what they're doing...

Hey, of course the ACO knows what they are doing! They are using the same "proven" business plan as Enron, AIG, Countrywide, and so forth. I'm not sure if there is a bail out plan for the ACO though. Don Panoz provided one "Get out of jail" card to the ACO, but he'd be a damn fool to give them a second one. I don't even know if he can give them a second one.

[TF110]

The US putting arms in those countries isn't for usage against it's citizens. It's probably for stability in the region, ya know- with Iran and all? We'll see how things go in the early months of this new year.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by Acid09

I think it depends on the state of both series. If the WEC really does start out with 40 entries this year and is able to expand on that next year and the ALMS demise continues then the Sebring organizers will have a hard choice to make..

Would it really be wise to have a 12hr race with that much legacy run by a field of largely amateur drivers in spec machinery while the professional world championship packed with works efforts and pro drivers races somewhere else?

Dosen't really sound smart...

Remembering of course, that the Sebring organizers are also the owners of the ALMS....

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by Acid09

Regarding 2008, yes, Peugeot did the PLM because they wanted to race Audi pretty much regardless where and back then the PLM didn't clash with anything. The LMS season was over, there was no reason not to do it. But this year there are plenty of reasons, the most important one being that the PLM is scheduled in the closing stages of the WEC... no sensible team is going to risk their cars in a non-points event, not even speaking of the costs involved.

If Audi keeps screwing things up like they have for the last a couple of years (outside Le Mans that is) I'm pretty sure Peugeot has already confirmed their manufacturer title by the time PLM happens - as there is only Zhuhai/Shanghai after that. If the title is already theirs by then, would you then see entering PLM a viable option for Pugs?

[Acid09]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

Remembering of course, that the Sebring organizers are also the owners of the ALMS....

Of course but if the ALMS shrinks even more they also have to protect their interests in terms of the 12hr race. There's no reason for that event to go down as well if the series is already tanking..

At one point they might have to pull an emergency stop and give Sebring & the PLM to the WEC to at least have those prestigious races on their tracks.

[Deleted]

Don Panoz owns both tracks and no way in hell is he going to hand those events to outsiders. Sebring and PLM both survived for ten years without outside help.

[Coach Ep]

Originally Posted by Acid09

but not enough for WEC entries to waste their shot at a World Championship title (!!) by competing in a non-points round.

I believe a substantial amount of teams (or entries if you like) are in the WEC for ´just´ an automatic entry of LM and giving a lower priority to running the actual championship. It is my guess we´ll see more than 1 or 2 entries dropping out of the WEC after Le Mans.

And - as Chiana noted - the championship could be done by the time we get to the Petit. If Bahrain gets cancelled and not replaced it will probably decrease such a possibility (depending on the actual standings of course). I doubt however if such a situation would change much of the plans of Audi et all since it will very much be a last-minute decision by then (we´re talking August or September, not the start of the year) and we all know that on this level of racing there aren´t many last minute entries (last minute drop outs on the other hand...).

[Deleted]

Petit class win also grants automatic entry for LM - even more reasons for European entries to participate, especially in P1 and P2 where you don't have that many opponents to challenge you. And if diesels sit out it's a perfect opportunity for Pescarolo, Rebellion or some other petrol team to finally take overall honours in one of the biggest races anywhere.

[pederb]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

Frankly, I doubt Sebring becomes a WEC only round. The WEC if it wishes to continue to race in North America, will have to find their own round.

Well we do know that FIA WTCC is coming to Infinion Raceway in 2012, it would be easy to include WEC for 2013 and make it a FIA weekend. WTCC 2012 Schedule

[Acid09]

Originally Posted by Chiana

Don Panoz owns both tracks and no way in hell is he going to hand those events to outsiders. Sebring and PLM both survived for ten years without outside help.

Yeah but the ALMS was never in such a bleak state and there was no competition from a major international championship.

Putting the head in the sand won't help....

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by pederb

Well we do know that FIA WTCC is coming to Infinion Raceway in 2012, it would be easy to include WEC for 2013 and make it a FIA weekend. WTCC 2012 Schedule

There's an unwritten (or written?) rule that two separate FIA World Championship events can't happen at the same circuit on the same weekend.

Also I love Sears Point but I don't find it very fitting for WEC.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by AGD

Hey, of course the ACO knows what they are doing! They are using the same "proven" business plan as Enron, AIG, Countrywide, and so forth. I'm not sure if there is a bail out plan for the ACO though. Don Panoz provided one "Get out of jail" card to the ACO, but he'd be a damn fool to give them a second one. I don't even know if he can give them a second one.

The ACO aren't novices as Le Mans grids year after year prove. After the '92 disaster it was them that put the sport back on track with new regulations, the year the ALMS began Le Mans boasted factory entries from Mercedes, Audi, Toyota, Nissan, BMW, Panoz and Chrysler, up until recenty the series refelected the Le Mans grids and at one time had ambitions of being a world series itself.

Despite Panoz' involvment with Sebring, I don't see it as a given it will become an ALMS only round. For twenty years Le Mans wasn't aligned with anyone, it's entries came from whatever was the top series of the day, much thought will be given to ensure Sebring remains the No.1 NA sportscar race which the WEC can guarantee with top international and local entries, or is there a belief the race has the power to make or break the ALMS? For PLM's part I don't see such a prospect being raised, it's a creation of the ALMS, and as long as the series is around should remain such.

Originally Posted by Coach Ep

I believe a substantial amount of teams (or entries if you like) are in the WEC for ´just´ an automatic entry of LM and giving a lower priority to running the actual championship. It is my guess we´ll see more than 1 or 2 entries dropping out of the WEC after Le Mans.

I've no doubt there are some who fit that bill, but dropping away is counter productive if you have Le Mans ambitions beyond one year, there are also a number of other big budget sportscar series with good grids that don't have the bonus of Le Mans, or even a Championship that means much beyond the sportscar hardcore.

There was a time when Mercedes missed Le Mans to concentrate on their WSC campaign, of which Le Mans was not part due to an FIA dispute. While times have changed and Le Mans is of much greater importance relative to other events, not to mention the ACO now run the WEC, the sport has to get back to individual rounds, the World Championship title and the narrative of the season battle meaning something, plan for the coming years rather than stumbling from boom to bust.

It's these season long battles that made the recent Audi vs Peugeot ILMC duels meaningful, or Audi vs Porsche vs Acura in the ALMS, Le Mans in the nineties had some fantastic grids but most packed up for another twelve months at the end of the race, momentum was lost, making it an easier decision for manufactuers to move to F1, WTCC or WRC.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by JAG

The ACO aren't novices as Le Mans grids year after year prove. After the '92 disaster it was them that put the sport back on track with new regulations

Mr Ratel was one of the main reasons why Le Mans didn't fade into nothingness after 1992, the re-introduction of GTs was mandatory for it's survival.

[AGD]

Originally Posted by JAG

The ACO aren't novices as Le Mans grids year after year prove.

Sometimes series succeed for a while despite of their incompetence. For a while is the key term. USAC could line up tons of cars at Indy even with their massive, massive incompetence. CART was ok for a while. The ALMS and Grand-Am have had their moments. Ultimately, however, incompetence does not pay off.

Despite Panoz' involvment with Sebring, I don't see it as a given it will become an ALMS only round.

The WEC has made it clear that they want Sebring all for themselves. Panoz controls that. We'll see. I would think that Sebring 12 needs to be a part of the ALMS if there is an ALMS, but I don't know if that will be enough to keep the ALMS and the Sebring 12 viable. I'm not sure if the WEC only is the answer for Sebring either.