The never ending Toyota return to Le Mans (LMP1) Saga

[gwyllion]

The reaction of the ACO on Toyota announcement: http://www.lemans.org/en/news/Toyota...ns_-_5424.html

[gustavobamba]

Originally Posted by Gingers4Justice

I really couldn't imagine a serious factory effort not doing either Sebring or Spa before Le Mans.

I still don't get the 2012 date. Why build a car for 2 years of competition?

My comment will be very sarcastic

The Toyota will have a real opportunity in winning in 2013 because from 2014 the rules will "favour" Porsche and in 2013 the diesel technology will not have the advantage they have now. The ACO will want to prove that Hybrid is the way to the new set of rules in 2014, and a Toyota win will help them.

BTW for me the rules for 2014 will be very similar to the 2012 except the minimum weigtht ofr LMP 1 car´s (750 kg) and the fuel limitations. This new Toyota car will be ballast (900 kg) an will be eligible in 2014.

[Pandamasque]

Any info on the Rebellion's involvement in this program? Weren't they willing to become Toyota's factory team eventually?

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by gustavobamba

BTW for me the rules for 2014 will be very similar to the 2012 except the minimum weigtht ofr LMP 1 car´s (750 kg) and the fuel limitations. This new Toyota car will be ballast (900 kg) an will be eligible in 2014.

Yes, it is unclear at the moment whether the chassis and aero regulations will change in 2014. So the current chassis can perhaps still be used.

However, as you pointed out, the new minimum weight is said to be reduced 775 kg (see minutes of ACO meeting, June 2010).

Additionally, the engine rules will become completely free. Maybe this implies that a 2.0 direct injection turbocharged engine is not longer the best choice as petrol engine.

Finally, the hybrid rules will become unrestricted: the amount of energy that is recovered and stored will be free, and kinetic energy can be recovered/released on 4 wheels instead of 2 wheels. That could lead to fundamentally different requirements for the chassis (e.g., bigger battery pack, front wheel drive, ...).

[AGD]

Originally Posted by Pandamasque

Any info on the Rebellion's involvement in this program? Weren't they willing to become Toyota's factory team eventually?

Ha, I'm sure they would be willing! I'm quite doubtful that Rebellion will have any involvement in this. Toyota may hire some Rebellion people that they like or borrow them, but I suspect that TMG in Germany will run this program. They ran a F1 team, I assume they can run a Le Mans program. They have in the past.

As for Rebellion, I'm sure they have been aware of Toyota's plans, but I wonder how this announcement will impact their plans. Chances of victories in the WEC, or even getting airtime, have narrowed considerably even with the rules advantages they received. Maybe they will go the ALMS after all with at least one car? Perhaps it would benefit Toyota to have a "Toyota" in the US. Also, I wonder if Rebellion will get the same powertrain as the factor car (perhaps without the hybrid, but perhaps so? Will it even fit?).

[lms]

Originally Posted by Gingers4Justice

I still don't get the 2012 date. Why build a car for 2 years of competition?

they could gain some experience maybe. Use it for a better 2014 car. On the other hand, the 2014 rules are known, so... I dont know

[CTD]

I think it's time to rename the Thread .

And on the subject of name, TS030 could be likely to keep a tradition, but Lmp-One could also be!? (reference to Gt-one)

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by AGD

Also, I wonder if Rebellion will get the same powertrain as the factor car (perhaps without the hybrid, but perhaps so? Will it even fit?).

Highly unlikely. Rebellion will continue to use the Super GT derived customer engine.

The factory program will get a modern, completely clean sheet engine. My guess is on a 2.0 turbocharged, direct injected engine. The number of cilinders will be the biggest surprise: straight 4 or V6.

The big question is what the hybrid system will look like. KERS on front wheels or in gearbox? Lithium Ion battery, supercapacitors or combination?

[Ultimo]

Originally Posted by CTD

I think it's time to rename the Thread .

And on the subject of name, TS030 could be likely to keep a tradition, but Lmp-One could also be!? (reference to Gt-one)

I like both of your suggestions; TS030 a bit more, but I could see them doing something lame.

EDIT: It's funny, but many people here I assume don't like Toyota's road cars (I don't - barring the LFA), but pretty much everyone loves to see a big name manufacturer at Le Mans.

I wonder if the dream scenario of Peugeot, Audi, Porsche and Toyota competing at Le Mans in 2014 will come to pass.

[CTD]

Originally Posted by Ultimo

I like both of your suggestions; TS030 a bit more, but I could see them doing something lame.

EDIT: It's funny, but many people here I assume don't like Toyota's road cars (I don't - barring the LFA), but pretty much everyone loves to see a big name manufacturer at Le Mans.

I wonder if the dream scenario of Peugeot, Audi, Porsche and Toyota competing at Le Mans in 2014 will come to pass.

Toyota entering Le Mans, is good for the race - and we all love a good race, so therefor the excitement . (The passion will be different when we are getting close to Le Mans, I'm sure )

It's no longer a dream scenario - it's a fact.

[deggis]

Am I reading some posts wrong or why many seem to assume that Toyota races for two season, then quits as a winner or loser? Just when Porsche comes? Isn't this why WEC was created? Their last trip doesn't count as an example because as far as I've read/understood long-term plan was to move to F1 anyway.

Also, the competition is probably not going to get any looser and the lifetimes of cars are at least not going to get longer. So what if they can use the car for only two years? Other option is to not race at all.

ps. Funny to feel somehow disappointed that it's not a full WEC schedule because this is still a lot more than was expected (Mike's rumor/speculation about 2013 etc).

[deggis]

Originally Posted by AGD

The rumor is that the technical regs may not change hugely for 2014 so maybe the car can be used again.

I expect that you know well what has been said at mulsannescorner about the new proposals... so how can you say it's not a huge change?

[deggis]

Originally Posted by Pandamasque

Any info on the Rebellion's involvement in this program? Weren't they willing to become Toyota's factory team eventually?

"TMG’s award-winning engineering services, including all current motorsport projects, will continue unaffected by this announcement"?

[joeb]

Does anybody else think the rendering of the car is missing something? Specifically a big Muscle Milk sticker on the front!

[Simmi]

Can't imagine this will be out at Sebring which will make the wait all the more tantalising.

[deggis]

Yup. I hope it's purely because of simply the time constraints and not because of intents to cherry pick rounds, which I guess would be ok and even make sense since it's the 1st year but would be still somehow annoying because ILMC/WEC was supposed to end that. Full WEC minus Sebring (and Spa), whether WEC is 6, 7 or 8 rounds, would be still "several" as mentioned in the release.

[Acid09]

I´m pretty sure they´ll do Spa at least, returning to Le Mans with a car that has never been raced is too much of a risk.

[CTD]

Originally Posted by Acid09

I´m pretty sure they´ll do Spa at least, returning to Le Mans with a car that has never been raced is too much of a risk.

Not if they do it under the right marketing. (ei. marketing the run is only for testing)
But it wouldn't be worth it.

[AGD]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

The factory program will get a modern, completely clean sheet engine. My guess is on a 2.0 turbocharged, direct injected engine. The number of cilinders will be the biggest surprise: straight 4 or V6.

Turbo 4 would be my bet. Toyota has done it before and won the Daytona 24 with that.

Originally Posted by deggis

I expect that you know well what has been said at mulsannescorner about the new proposals... so how can you say it's not a huge change?

That should have been worded to say that it may not have a huge impact on the chassis itself. May or may not. We'll see. gwyllion summarized some of the proposed possibilities. Either way, Toyota can afford to design a new chassis if they wish.

[deggis]

Originally Posted by AGD

That should have been worded to say that it may not have a huge impact on the chassis itself. May or may not. We'll see.

-125 kg is a lot and if new engine, then at least it's not particularly small impact on the chassis.

Either way, Toyota can afford to design a new chassis if they wish.

Exactly.

[AGD]

Originally Posted by Acid09

I´m pretty sure they´ll do Spa at least, returning to Le Mans with a car that has never been raced is too much of a risk.

The problem with not running before Le Mans, at least IMO, isn't so much that the car won't have race experience, but that the team itself won't have any race experience. You could have 3-6-9 drivers who have never worked with the engineers before in race situations. That may be tough. Some of the drivers may not have any endurance experience.

I wonder if there is any possibility that Toyota may borrow a car from Rebellion (or something like that) just to get some race experience in for everyone if the actual car isn't ready for Spa or even Sebring.

It does seem weird to think that Lotterer ran his last race for Audi back at Le Mans in 2011! We'll see. I think this may be a very good time to be Andre's agent, but who knows what his contract is like as it is.

Oh, as for us not liking Toyota products, there is something to be said about that. All that said, Toyota has produced some very memorable sports cars. GT-One for sure. The Eagle IMSA GTPs were very special machines.

[AGD]

Originally Posted by deggis

-125 kg is a lot and if new engine, then at least it's not particularly small impact on the chassis.

Right, but I'm sure Toyota knows what is going on. If they plan on running this chassis beyond 2013, I'm sure there would be some provisions made for adjustment. Ballast can be pulled and so forth. It may not be ideal, but if it isn't, they can make a new chassis like we said earlier. The other thing to remember is that even everyone needs new chassis in 2014, Toyota would only get one less year out of their car than Peugeot and Audi.

[Simmi]

I agree it would be good to see a Rebellion at Sebring for the drivers to begin to form a working relationship.

[Dead-Eye]

Well, the traditional way of doing things has been to go to Sebring, see what falls off, and fix that until Le Mans. Of course, that only works if the car is ready.

[AGD]

Originally Posted by Dead-Eye

Well, the traditional way of doing things has been to go to Sebring, see what falls off, and fix that until Le Mans. Of course, that only works if the car is ready.

The car can be "ready," but I'm sure Toyota does not want to embarrass themselves by bringing a raw product to race on the big stage ala the AMR-One. Besides, Audi won Le Mans the last two years without racing their Le Mans car at Sebring. They won Sebring in 2009, but ended up falling flat on their faces at Le Mans. Now Audi has tested at Sebring even if they have not raced their cars there, but the actual race itself may not be absolutely necessary.

The advantage or disadvantage of not running before Le Mans is that nobody will know if adjustments to the rules will need to be made. Stuff like that is always hard to tell though.