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Old 27 Mar 2012, 14:19 (Ref:3049451)   #51
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Originally Posted by Tim the Grey View Post
I'll take 37 GOOD cars anyday, over 12 good entries, and 50 make weights...
Looks promising from what I see. Though it IS a shame that ELMS isn't run as part of things.
True- but I wouldn't have minded seeing some of the stronger ELMS entries, especially those who are going to Le Mans anyway, taking in Spa as part of their LM preparation...
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Old 27 Mar 2012, 14:24 (Ref:3049455)   #52
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How do the points work?

If Audi finishes the races in positions 1 - 4 and Toyota finishes 5th do Toyota get WEC points for finishing 3rd 4th or 5th?
if i understood well, drivers of audi #1,#2 and #3 will take the first three highest points in driver's champ, while toyota drivers will take the forth place. In manufacter's champ i guess that audi will reach 25 points for the highest classified car, while toyota should take 12 points for the forth place (the scheme is this: first placed audi (if is one between #1 or #2) takes manufacters poins, second placed audi not, third placed audi can't score points for manufacter champ in spa, so i guess that if the #3 wins, the second finished audi will reach only 18 points, forth audi isn't in WEC at all, so toyota finished the race virtually in forth position)
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Old 27 Mar 2012, 14:41 (Ref:3049460)   #53
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@alexkiller8

Regulations say:

Quote:
In general, any car which is taking part in a Championship
Event but is not officially registered for it will keep its
classification at the end of each Event in which it takes part
but will not score points for the various titles in the
Championship and will be "invisible" in these various
classifications
.
So as I understand it, if #3 Audi came first and #2 Audi came second, the #2 would still get full points for first place because the #3 (not entered for the WEC season) is "invisible" for the points calculation.

Of course you are right about differentiating between manufacturers and drivers points, I forgot about that... they made the whole thing so complicated this year...

So in this example, Toyota in 5th place should score 2nd place points for the Manufacturers Championship and the drivers should get 3rd place points.

Last edited by Prometheus; 27 Mar 2012 at 14:48.
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Old 27 Mar 2012, 15:07 (Ref:3049473)   #54
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So in this example, Toyota in 5th place should score 2nd place points for the Manufacturers Championship and the drivers should get 3rd place points.
You can see why this championship won't be getting big audiences any time soon... even fans have hard time figuring things out
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Old 27 Mar 2012, 15:13 (Ref:3049477)   #55
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You can see why this championship won't be getting big audiences any time soon... even fans have hard time figuring things out
Yep, I thought the same thing when I saw all those different championship standings after Sebring. You can't expect anybody to figure all this out.
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Old 27 Mar 2012, 15:41 (Ref:3049490)   #56
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Even with "invisible cars" (and for this year, hopefully only for this year, complicated by the fact that only one car scores points) I bet it's a bit hard for the average viewer to understand why, besides the drivers' championship, there is no championship where all of the top P1 teams compete together.

One championship would be awesome. Named constructors' championship or something (better than "teams'"), that wouldn't be too far from what many of the private teams actually are. (In WRC teams are "manufacturers"... so I guess FIA isn't too worried about the wording generally). If "everybody has to win" then in addition a privateer cup or something could be created. I think even the LMS/ILMC way of having teams' and manufacturers' championships would be better.

And what comes to the drivers' championship... it doesn't make much more sense either because it combines ALL classes. As if GT/LMP2 had any chance winning it?

Last edited by deggis; 27 Mar 2012 at 15:52.
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Old 27 Mar 2012, 16:13 (Ref:3049498)   #57
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Originally Posted by Prometheus View Post
@alexkiller8

Regulations say:



So as I understand it, if #3 Audi came first and #2 Audi came second, the #2 would still get full points for first place because the #3 (not entered for the WEC season) is "invisible" for the points calculation.

Of course you are right about differentiating between manufacturers and drivers points, I forgot about that... they made the whole thing so complicated this year...

So in this example, Toyota in 5th place should score 2nd place points for the Manufacturers Championship and the drivers should get 3rd place points.
be invisible for points calculation doesn't mean that the second one after will automaticly become the first taking all winning points! then if the final result is this:
1. #3 audi WEC not scoring points for manufacter's cup
2. #2 audi WEC *best result for audi in manufacter's cup
3. #1 audi WEC
4. #4 audi no entry in WEC
5. #7 toyota WEC *best result for toyota in manufacter's cup
i think that audi will reach 18 points and toyota is still considered fifth (or fourth if not WEC entry cars will be totally invisible) and not second! last year in ILMC was used this system. Example in 2011 6h of spa, rebellion #12 finished in 7th overall position but 5th in ILMC classification, but however received 6 points as reward for the race in ILMC team champ (six points was the reward for the 7th place). If this way is kept also this year well i guess that toyota will reach 10 points for manufacter's champ. About senseless of mixed driver's champ some time ago i expressed my opinions, it seemed that none agreed with me, but now i'm realizing that i'm not the only one to think in this way.
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Old 27 Mar 2012, 16:26 (Ref:3049502)   #58
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be invisible for points calculation doesn't mean that the second one after will automaticly become the first taking all winning points!
Well for me it means just that guess we'll only know after Spa...

But: I just had a look at the WEC post-Sebring standings and apparently any car can score driver points. The #3 Audi drivers did get 18 points for 2nd place.
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Old 27 Mar 2012, 16:38 (Ref:3049507)   #59
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all drivers line-up in entry cars of WEC (partial or full entry) are allowed to score points in driver's champ
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Old 27 Mar 2012, 16:52 (Ref:3049516)   #60
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Originally Posted by alexkiller8 View Post
all drivers line-up in entry cars of WEC (partial or full entry) are allowed to score points in driver's champ
Yes, just did some furher reading in the regs and noticed that. Thanks. (Article 16.A.f, by the way )

But: how dows Article 16.A.h fit in?

Quote:
Additional cars entered by a competitor registered for the
LMP1 Manufacturers’ World Championship will only score
points for the said championship if, through that entry, the
number of cars entered by the competitor does not exceed
that mentioned in Article 39. b) and Article 16. A. i).
(39.b being the "two cars per group"-rule and 16.A.i the "additional cars for LM24"-rule)

So why did Audi (and also does for Spa) enter 3 cars as "Audi Sport Joest" with the third car not being allowed to score points, if they could enter it as "Audi Sport North America" and thus make it eligible for points? Audi made sure the #3 didn't win Sebring - but what if it had for some reason? This might be relevant when we go to Spa...
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Old 27 Mar 2012, 19:29 (Ref:3049601)   #61
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i watched again some ILMC 2011 statistics, well also here there is a no-sense! in spa 2011 there were 3 audi cars (the #1 and #2 ILMC entries and the #3 not, infact had also the LMS banner as confirmed by this pic

well, audi was rewarded with 21 points at the end of the race (11 points for the #3 placed third + 9 points for the #1 placed fourth + 1 point of pole position of the #1). Well if you've read well, the #3 that wasn't a ILMC entry (or that wasn't a full-entry car) however scored points for audi in manufacter's cup! even if 2012 regulamentation say as written above, now i am really doubtfull that #3 and #4 can't score points for manufacter's cup....

(link of the pic http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autoblog....1304711201.jpg)
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Old 27 Mar 2012, 19:33 (Ref:3049602)   #62
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On the entry list several teams have '°' next to them, which according to the entry list means 'Subject to the FIA approval'.

Does anyone know what that is all about?

Tom.
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Old 27 Mar 2012, 19:42 (Ref:3049610)   #63
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yes me too noticed that. In sebring i thougt that AF Corse #51 was running with some waiver because during sebring test days the car hadn't installed the mandatory 2012 bigger side mirrors... but AF Corse cars used them during the race so the reason apparently is another.
An other reason may be that not all drivers that run in 2012 WEC received a FIA ranking classification (example bertolini is not included in the list) so their presence need to be examinated and confirmed race by race as mere formality.
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Old 27 Mar 2012, 20:30 (Ref:3049638)   #64
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arakis has a lot of promise if they can keep it on the circuit!
article 41. b.c something or another...
they didn't pay for the second car yet they have until 15th of April to pay for it.
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Old 27 Mar 2012, 20:47 (Ref:3049647)   #65
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well AF Corse is someway backed by ferrari corse clienti department, and because of this is involved in almost all important european national and international champs... financial issues are the last of their problems.
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Old 28 Mar 2012, 09:01 (Ref:3049905)   #66
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How do the points work?

If Audi finishes the races in positions 1 - 4 and Toyota finishes 5th do Toyota get WEC points for finishing 3rd 4th or 5th?
At least we cleared that up then I think I am more confused than I was before I asked the question
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Old 28 Mar 2012, 21:51 (Ref:3050220)   #67
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I guess AMR have two cars, one in the US and one in EUR.

Since they are going to run both Long Beach and Laguna Seca and Spa in between?

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Old 28 Mar 2012, 21:57 (Ref:3050224)   #68
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well AF Corse is someway backed by ferrari corse clienti department, and because of this is involved in almost all important european national and international champs... financial issues are the last of their problems.
Anyway, Ferrari does not foot their entire bill. Being big and beautiful and involved in numerous championships doesn't meant they have no financial issues and in any case it doesn't mean they wouldn't use every regulatory loophole to get rid off their money as late as possible. You make it sound they would be a fully factory-backed team instead of a factory-supported team, which they are. A huge part of their program is paid by wealthy clients and all that together makes it possible for them to run a few pro-cars.
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Old 28 Mar 2012, 22:07 (Ref:3050227)   #69
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sure, but in WEC AF Corse run for ferrari in manufacter's cup, so i guess that ferrari reparto corse clienti is really intersted to support them paying the remaining taxes!
It's not the GT-open or other national championships where ferrari manufacter isn't releated at all with the team
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Old 29 Mar 2012, 05:19 (Ref:3050293)   #70
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Ferrari doesn't invest in AF Corse's program just as Porsche doesn't invest in Felbermayr-Protons. They provide factory drivers and the latest equipment, but they aren't paying any money into it.
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Old 29 Mar 2012, 10:54 (Ref:3050353)   #71
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Ferrari doesn't invest in AF Corse's program just as Porsche doesn't invest in Felbermayr-Protons. They provide factory drivers and the latest equipment, but they aren't paying any money into it.
Exactly. Well, depending on the case, there might be some additional support i.e. in form of parts which can be seen as financial support, but for sure the factories are not paying the full bill or half of it or anything close.
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Old 29 Mar 2012, 15:54 (Ref:3050477)   #72
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I guess AMR have two cars, one in the US and one in EUR.

Since they are going to run both Long Beach and Laguna Seca and Spa in between?

Cheers
Makes sense- even if the second car on the reserve list for Le Mans wasn't going to get a start, there's still the AMR GTE-Am entry on the list, so they're going to need two cars available sooner or later anyway. I guess the Sebring car has stayed in the US, and a 'new' car will appear for Spa.
A thought- the 'Am' car at Le Mans will presumably need to be 2011-spec, without whatever upgrades AMR made over the winter, so have they got at least 3 chassis available?
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Old 29 Mar 2012, 16:49 (Ref:3050506)   #73
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NightStalk3r should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridNightStalk3r should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
I don't see why, the Gulf AMR Middle East Vantage in GTE-Am last year was a brand new 2011 spec car, and yes it was 2011 spec.
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Old 29 Mar 2012, 17:33 (Ref:3050534)   #74
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I don't see why, the Gulf AMR Middle East Vantage in GTE-Am last year was a brand new 2011 spec car, and yes it was 2011 spec.
Waiver. And that car will be in the Aston Martin Festival support race actually with Archie Hamilton driving as far as I'm aware.

EDIT: They could do what Ferrari did for Krohn Racing: 2012-built car but to 2011 specifications.
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Old 29 Mar 2012, 20:29 (Ref:3050608)   #75
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A thought- the 'Am' car at Le Mans will presumably need to be 2011-spec, without whatever upgrades AMR made over the winter, so have they got at least 3 chassis available?
The YD car at LM is supposed to be a 2011 chassis, yes (the one run by YD last year). Apparently Aston has applied for a waiver to allow the modifications to the powertrain for reliability purposes from the 2012 car to be applied to the 2011 chassis as well.
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