WEC LMP1 vs ALMS GTE

[Canada ALMS fan]

^Standing still they both are beautiful (although the Audi is not one of my faves), it's watching the LMPs corner and weave through traffic that is breathtaking.

[Accident]

I've been dreaming about an all GT ALMS for a while now, I think I've posted it here several times too.

Current ALMS GT cars as the main class, with roughly CTSCC GS cars as the second class. The classes would contain instantly recognizable, desirable cars, and the casual fan would be able to easily tell the difference between the classes, eliminating that complaint and making it friendly to new fans, who are what the sport needs. Dream cars in GT and attainable cars that have loyal fan bases in the GS class. The difference in speed should still be significant enough to provide the spectacle of a higher class car carving through the lower class field.

Play up the old manufacturer rivalries, like Viper vs Corvette in GT and Camaro vs Mustang in GS, get the loyal fans of each out to the track to support their chosen manufacturer. Make sure the various corrals are well populated (perhaps send out invites to various car clubs near the track?). Might as well play up the international rivalries as well.

The ALMS GT teams are stars, the drivers are stars, the cars are stars, yet the class is 4th on the billing behind pro/am cost capped cars and spec cars. Put them in the front with a chance to win Sebring overall and I would be willing to bet it would pull some interest. I'm sure AMR would rather be running up front in the ALMS than running around WEC tracks while the cameras focus on Audis. Might even pull something like the LFA GTE project back on the burner.

The LMP cars are great but racing fans in the US are still a bit fractured. There are still tons of old school fans that want some good old fashion American V8 rumble and door banging action, but there are also plenty who want high tech stuff and "European sophistication" in their racing. LMP racing does not provide both of those things, where as GT does.

I suppose this is running a bit off topic though... On topic, I would take the GT class any day, it's what got me into this kind of racing. I've come to like the prototypes too, but I'm just not passionate about the cars or the manufacturers currently in LMP, and it doesn't provide the same variety.

As for the GT3 cars being brought in, I definitely want more cars in the class, but I don't especially want to see the "GT3 way" brought with it. That's why I'm kinda mixed about seeing the Z4 show up, although I suppose the current M3 isn't much better when it comes to being faithful to the road version...

[Simmi]

Couldn't disagree more regarding R18 vs Viper. I still don't really understand the comparison though as the beauty of sportscar racing is surely the fact that I don't have to choose!

[TF110]

Prototypes aren't ugly. They have been less appealing because of the holes and fins, but that should change soon. Nothing compares to them IMO. GT's are great, but I'd rather see Prototypes that're purpose built.

[Dyson Mazda]

I've been dreaming about an all GT ALMS for a while now, I think I've posted it here several times too.

Current ALMS GT cars as the main class, with roughly CTSCC GS cars as the second class. The classes would contain instantly recognizable, desirable cars, and the casual fan would be able to easily tell the difference between the classes, eliminating that complaint and making it friendly to new fans, who are what the sport needs. Dream cars in GT and attainable cars that have loyal fan bases in the GS class. The difference in speed should still be significant enough to provide the spectacle of a higher class car carving through the lower class field.

Play up the old manufacturer rivalries, like Viper vs Corvette in GT and Camaro vs Mustang in GS, get the loyal fans of each out to the track to support their chosen manufacturer. Make sure the various corrals are well populated (perhaps send out invites to various car clubs near the track?). Might as well play up the international rivalries as well.

The ALMS GT teams are stars, the drivers are stars, the cars are stars, yet the class is 4th on the billing behind pro/am cost capped cars and spec cars. Put them in the front with a chance to win Sebring overall and I would be willing to bet it would pull some interest. I'm sure AMR would rather be running up front in the ALMS than running around WEC tracks while the cameras focus on Audis. Might even pull something like the LFA GTE project back on the burner.

The LMP cars are great but racing fans in the US are still a bit fractured. There are still tons of old school fans that want some good old fashion American V8 rumble and door banging action, but there are also plenty who want high tech stuff and "European sophistication" in their racing. LMP racing does not provide both of those things, where as GT does.

I suppose this is running a bit off topic though... On topic, I would take the GT class any day, it's what got me into this kind of racing. I've come to like the prototypes too, but I'm just not passionate about the cars or the manufacturers currently in LMP, and it doesn't provide the same variety.

As for the GT3 cars being brought in, I definitely want more cars in the class, but I don't especially want to see the "GT3 way" brought with it. That's why I'm kinda mixed about seeing the Z4 show up, although I suppose the current M3 isn't much better when it comes to being faithful to the road version...

If the ALMS goes to an all-GT field, which will not ever happen (I think LMP2 is going to grow a lot this year going into next year), the classes should look like this.

GT1- ACO GTE
GT2- FIA GT3
GT3- Pro/Am GTE/GT3's

The ALMS has reached a point where it needs to cut out GTC, adding GT Am, and grandfather the LMPC's into LMP2. I am at the point where I am getting tired of the spec-racing in this series.

[Jonerz]

Originally Posted by Canada ALMS fan

^Plus LMP2 seems to really be gaining traction globally, so why dump a class that is just gaining momentum and has rules stability through 2015?
Also, I agree the ALMS needs to adopt the GTE Pro/AM format instead of GTC, I am sure at least a couple of the GTC teams would step up plus you would get an ESM Ferrari, a Flying Lizard, and maybe Tracy Krohn? Gets us away from the spec racing but the series is addicted to the Porsche & Yokohama cash from GTC.

I don't think the Porsche and Yokohama cash disappears with the GTC class.

And I'd rather see GS/GT4 replace GTC. Different cars, inexpensive and many very professional teams with that equipment in North America.

Chris

[Prometheus]

Originally Posted by Dyson Mazda

I think the thing that makes us sportscar fans over F1 fans is the relationship to the cars themselves and at the end of the day that Viper is something I cannot wait to see on the track and on the street.

I do agree more with Acid09s statement.

I'm a sports car racing fan mainly because I want to see innovative prototypes. Cars that have been created for motor racing and that incorporate exciting new technical ideas. I'm not an engineer, I can barely explain how a combustion engine works (bit exaggerated ;-)) but I love to read all that stuff about what Audi, Peugeot, Toyota or whoever thought of and I want to see who built the best car.

GT racing is great and I love the multi-class nature of Le Mans and the attached series. But my main focus is on the prototypes. That's why I prefer these championships to FIA/SRO-GT Racing, which undeniably also has great racing on offer, but for me, that just isn't enough. Thus a GT-only ALMS would cut my interest in half.

The thing I like least in motorsports is watching cars that I could also see on the supermarket parking space (that is: touring cars and "low tech" GTs)

[Canada ALMS fan]

Isn't it nice that we are debating how the ALMS should look in the future when 3 years ago we were worried if it would exist at all?
I think the one thing we can all agree on is that the spec classes, in a perfect world, need to go.
Prometheus is spot on IMO.

[FordCosworthPanoz]

Personally I think cars like this...


...Or even this:




Are a great mix between the high speed and technology of LMPs with the all important street-connection and potential passion that brands generate with the GT cars. Something like late 90s GT1 or GT500 as found in Super GT would be the ideal overall class in Sports car racing for me, although I doubt this would ever happen. It would be cool if through manufacturer support cars like the Viper, Porsche 997, Ferrari 458, and Corvette evolved into true-looking "Super Cars" like the ones above, especially the second with the GTR.

[deggis]

90s GT1 provided some of the best looking race cars ever, but the rule bending and more extensive BoP, no thank you.

[Canada ALMS fan]

Originally Posted by Jonerz

I don't think the Porsche and Yokohama cash disappears with the GTC class.

Chris

They both pay the series for exclusivity in GTC. GTC teams pay more for their tires than the GT teams do - monopoly! Porsche brings a parts trailer to every race.

[FordCosworthPanoz]

Originally Posted by Canada ALMS fan

Isn't it nice that we are debating how the ALMS should look in the future when 3 years ago we were worried if it would exist at all?

This is very true, but in my opinion the future is significantly better (unless you like Pro-Am racing and ugly cars) for GT racing in the ALMS than LMP.

It is great though that after years of uncertainty, politics, and gloom and doom to which I admit being a part of we are now talking about a series which will feature in my opinion the coolest collection of cars since the 1990s BPR/FIA GT series and instead of talking about how long it will last, we are talking about HOW it will last. However, it would be great to have leadership that puts a better effort in promoting the series to mainstream America.

[FordCosworthPanoz]

Originally Posted by deggis

90s GT1 provided some of the best looking race cars ever, but the rule bending and more extensive BoP, no thank you.

Obviously it could never happen, and we know what happened once Mercedes/Porsche came. I'm just saying something like it without it's flaws would be the ideal overall class in sports car racing. The problem of course would be removing those flaws, which sadly would be next to impossible.

Right now though In my opinion the best collection of cars in sports car racing is the ALMS GT class though, and with Viper confirmed, the possibilty of Mclaren, Audi and Acura in 2014, things only look to get better even if BMW pulls out of the sport.

[Canada ALMS fan]

Originally Posted by FordCosworthPanoz

This is very true, but in my opinion the future is significantly better (unless you like Pro-Am racing and ugly cars) for GT racing in the ALMS than LMP.

This is hard to argue. I don't mind the P2 cars as they are still real prototypes and at Sebring there were some hot shoes in them, look who came third overall. Gentlemen drivers have always been part of the dynamic of sportscars and a large part of the funding. That's why ALMS needs to adopt a GTE Pro/Am structure so we can have the bloodbath between factories that is going to be GT this year but also still encourage privateer efforts. Some of these GTE Am guys will inevitably get the bug and gravitate to P2 (Tim Pappas as an example). Once you feel the downforce there is no going back.

[Maelochs]

I think BMW released a press statement earlier this year where one of the more important people said that BMW had no interest in prototypes, and was going all-out in DTM and with the Z4 as its GT entry. They just aren't going to keep trying to get increased waivers for the M3.

I guess the M3 is selling well enough and BMW wants to pump up its sporting road car?

[TF110]

A SuperGT type series with cars based off their road variants, but modified extensively to a ruleset like GT500 would be great as a top class. The GT500's are already as fast if not faster than LMP2's. So imagine a GT500 Corvette, or Viper going up against those GTR's HSV's SC430's etc. Maybe Porsche could let their 918 run, and maybe a possible Ferrari supercar. BMW has expressed interest in SGT anyway. Who knows what the future holds.

[Accident]

Originally Posted by Dyson Mazda

If the ALMS goes to an all-GT field, which will not ever happen (I think LMP2 is going to grow a lot this year going into next year), the classes should look like this.

GT1- ACO GTE
GT2- FIA GT3
GT3- Pro/Am GTE/GT3's

The ALMS has reached a point where it needs to cut out GTC, adding GT Am, and grandfather the LMPC's into LMP2. I am at the point where I am getting tired of the spec-racing in this series.

I agree that it probably won't ever happen, but it's fun to daydream about when work is boring.

As for your class structure... I can't agree there, 3 classes of very similar cars just doesn't make sense. FIA GT3 is already about as fast as GTE is right now, and with several cars being in both classes it would only further confuse casual/new fans (which the series needs to gain, not confuse and scare away). Adding a separate pro/am class for GT cars would even further confuse the casual/new fans, and the fact that all 3 classes would be capable of similar pace would not really give the racing a true "mixed class feel" and we would lose the spectacle of an upper class car moving quickly through the lower class cars.

If something needs to be done for pro/am teams, then I'd suggest something like the "independents" thing that is used in BTCC.


I also agree with the what was said above about how GT500 or late '90s GT1 cars would be an ideal top class. They keep the exotic look and impressive performance that the prototypes have, but can also be somewhat recognizable to their associated manufacturers and their road cars, which I think is important for attracting fans and making the series viable.

[DistortedSmile]

I agree about the late 90's GT1s looking the best, they had the best aspects from both GTs and Prototypes. A return to this would be ideal IMO, though GT500 style regs also sound very nice.

[hondafan37]

Originally Posted by TF110
A SuperGT type series with cars based off their road variants, but modified extensively to a ruleset like GT500 would be great as a top class. The GT500's are already as fast if not faster than LMP2's. So imagine a GT500 Corvette, or Viper going up against those GTR's HSV's SC430's etc. Maybe Porsche could let their 918 run, and maybe a possible Ferrari supercar. BMW has expressed interest in SGT anyway. Who knows what the future holds.

I Agree with you, a GT500/DTM (Hybrid) class in the ACO should be Fantastic. Also the inclusion for the ACO of this class should close the gap between the DTM and SGT.
Also in this moment the 3 marks in P1 (Audi, Toyota and Honda) have DTM or SGT cars.
Only should have 600 or 650 HP + 80 or 100 HP to the hybrid engine.
The new ACO Classes should be:
1) GT500/DTM (Hybrid)
2) LMP2
3) GT3

[Dyson Mazda]

I wish the ACO would to the GT1 of the mid to late 1990's though that formula may be too factory driven. The top class could have cars like this again which I find to be far more relevant than the current LMP1's. It would be pretty cool to see that end up at Petit Le Mans by the way in as an UC car.



Go back an look at the entry list for the 1998 24 Hours of Le Mans. Everything has been downhill since that point (http://www.racingsportscars.com/phot...998-06-07.html).

[porman]

Go back an look at the entry list for the 1998 24 Hours of Le Mans. Everything has been downhill since that point (http://www.racingsportscars.com/phot...998-06-07.html).[/QUOTE]


1998 was a great field. Those prototypes were beautiful and we still had 993 GT2s which actually had some torque. My pipe dream would be to have a 991 with twin turbos compete in a modern day GT1. With proper homologation requirements we could have the Viper, Corvette, Ferrari and more run without such big engine restrictors.

I know that this sounds far-fetched but it would be exciting to watch. 600+ hp GT cars would certainly get my juices flowing.

[Acid09]

1999 was even better with Audi added to the mix with two different cars and BMW being reliable.

I think the 1999 field will go down in the history of Le Mans as the most-manufacturer packed ever, I'm not sure we will ever reach that again.

The actual race can't match the drama of 2011 though.

[The Badger]

I reckon they should join the WEC ..... the ALMS already has a brilliant GTE field , with a factory Corvette team ..... the Viper should be represented on an international level , to broadcast their image ..... plus the WEC could use another player with calibre .

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by The Badger

I reckon they should join the WEC ..... the ALMS already has a brilliant GTE field , with a factory Corvette team ..... the Viper should be represented on an international level , to broadcast their image ..... plus the WEC could use another player with calibre .

The Vipers will probably run at LM, and really that is the only non-North American WEC event that will matter to all but a small handful of North American anoraks. Running in front of where most of your market is, with Viper Car Corrals, and against your biggest competitor is the real focus, and should be.

[SALEEN S7R]

Whilst I agree that the bulk of Vipers will be sold in the US I do feel as though Dodge would benefit from running the car in the WEC too. The WEC is going to become popular globally very quickly I think and it is short sighted not to see that. Surely seeing the cars run in the WEC in addition to the US would be of benefit to Dodge in terms of world wide car sales rather than just running the car in the ALMS? Outside of North America nobody really knows much about the ALMS, the WEC is going to have a far bigger audience. If Dodge can be sucessful in the WEC surely global car sales would be as big for Dodge as the total sales of the car in the US? Perhaps the ALMS is a good toe in the water excersise ahead of a WEC/ALMS campaign.