[WEC Race] Bahrain 6 Hours 2012

[TF110]

LMP1 teams are allowed to drop 2 of their results. For Toyota that was Sebring and Spa. They've yet to miss a race since.

[deggis]

Originally Posted by TF110

LMP1 teams are allowed to drop 2 of their results.

Actually it only affects the Manufacturers Championship (http://www.planetlemans.com/2012/02/...pice-up-lm-p1/).

Quite irrelevant, but the fine is still in the sporting regs and it isn't actually contradictory: Toyota is still full season entrant. This amendment made to the rules was only about the points scoring. I think they have payed the fines.

Edit:

c) The participation of the competitors officially registered in the Championship in all the Events counting towards the Championship is imperative.

Or does that mean in this case the team (Toyota) could decide that Sebring and Spa are not events counting towards the championship?

[TF110]

I didn't mean the privateers. I figured since we were on the topic of Toyota, the relation 'teams' would carry over in my comment by the manufacturers. So I think the fact that they could drop two rounds from their total results means that they wouldn't get penalized or fined for missing them. Plus the project had only been introduced to the public in January. Then their testing accident forced them to miss Spa. So why would they get fined if they had no car to run? That's my take at least.

[Purist]

Greg, with Bernie and F1, it's about power, but also, exclusivity. The little man doesn't want any series to even have a sniff of getting close to the level of F1.

Speed/lap time on the same course layout is not a concern. However, I don't think Bernie likes having F1 directly compared to other series at all. And one concern he almost certainly has is that another series will be perceived to have put on a "better show" on the same track, particularly if that track is in one of those precious "emerging markets".

The mindset that these other categories are somehow just provincial series that need to know their place, and stay there, is NOT one that I agree with, but it's nothing new for a large business entity in its field to engage in monopolistic practices.

On a brighter note, yes, I would like them to bypass that silly chicane at the start of the final sector at Fuji. I don't know what Tilke's deal is with those things. Abu Dhabi also has one, as well as Moscow Raceway.

[TF110]

When the WEC gets the crowds that F1 get, I can see your point. But that's a long way off, if it ever happens. Bernie is in charge of the fees for F1, he can only pressure the tracks or penalize them with extra fees to host F1. There's nothing he can do to stop them from hosting another FIA race. People need to stop thinking this. He has no say over the other FIA races. He's FOM.

[Purist]

The old WSC wasn't drawing close to F1 crowds, except for at a few venues, and it only had 10 rounds or so, instead of 15-16. The WSC had nothing even close to the F1 TV package either. Even so, Bernie saw fit to pull strings at the FIA to see to it that the old WSC was brought down and wiped out. The 3.5-litre formula killed the series, and the Mulsanne was saddled with those two chicanes.

Not long after, Bernie tried to get the FIA to restrict who could get a license to drive in CART. Shortly thereafter, though he perhaps didn't play a direct role, he most certainly must have been grinning at seeing NASCAR help divide and conquer CART.

It doesn't matter if the competition is major or not at the time. There are those who want to quash all competition they can BEFORE it has the potential or opportunity to pose any real threat to their supremacy.

Back in the '40s or '50s, Coca Cola had the opportunity to buy outright Pepsi Cola...

[TF110]

Yesterday doesn't equal today. He has no say over the WEC, the FIA and ACO are in charge of that. With the questionable actions surrounding him now, he's better off doing what he's currently doing, charging tracks fees for F1. Jean Todt isn't a puppet of his, so I don't see him cowering in this sense because F1 has more prestige. That's known. But now you have Toyota involved, Audi involved, Porsche in 2 years etc. In this age of motorsports it seems sharing technology in different series isn't bringing down any one particular form of racing (F1 vs. Endurance). Toyota uses a variation of their SuperGT engine in their own car, and Rebellions. HPD use a varition in the ARX. They don't quit because SuperGT or WEC is better, it's cheap enough to do both. In the future, perhaps an F1 engine variation of an endurance engine will be cheap enough to do both. But who says it'll take away from the WEC? Not everyone wants to go to F1.

[Purist]

Jean Todt doesn't have to cower per se, but if he doesn't tow the line adequately, Bernie will do his damndest to have him ousted at the soonest possible opportunity. To say that Bernie has no say in the matter is naive. He isn't supposed to, theoretically, but you better believe that he DOES have something to say on the matter!

No, not everyone wants to be in F1, but then again, among the manufacturers that are large enough to really matter, only Porsche and the American "Big Three" can be said to have virtually no chance of deciding to go to F1 at some point here. Audi isn't terribly likely to go into F1, but I wouldn't rule it out as vehemently as those other four. You never know with Toyota and Honda. Aston Martin, Jaguar, and a host of others are simply too small to have the resources needed for a real F1 campaign.

Among the long-standing automakers, only Porsche and Ferrari strike me as capable of having successful sportscar and F1 programs running concurrently; McLaren isn't exactly a long-standing automaker in terms of building series production cars for road use. So, that's 2 manufacturers and 3 racing operations total that I think would be up to that task.

I can't see F1 ever being cheap enough to do as you suggest. The F1 engine program WILL be more expensive, so that would have to be the one to get first approval by the board at an automaker. F1 engines are simply too stressed and too specialized; you would be overly compromised trying to make an F1 engine out of an endurance engine, and might I add, Jaguar, Peugeot, and Toyota engines weren't exactly the most competitive kit in F1 in the early 1990s. In other words, something akin to your suggestion has been tried, by multiple sources at one time, and it didn't work. Not to mention, F1 has only gotten more expensive since then, and I doubt a full works Prototype program has gotten cheaper since then either.

And the crux of your argument doesn't matter, because Bernie simply doesn't care! He wants F1 to be THE top dog, period! Having FOM and FIA legally separated has NOT stopped him from exerting serious pull over the FIA for the last two decades.

Also, your examples of engine crossover are contained within various branches of Sportscar and GT racing, so not exactly applicable here with regards to F1. Finally, it could be said that F1 has inherently taken away from sportscar racing for nearly 40 years, because Ferrari has done ONLY full works programs in F1 since the beginning of 1974; their last factory sportscar program was with the 312PB in 1972-73.

[deggis]

Originally Posted by Purist

On a brighter note, yes, I would like them to bypass that silly chicane at the start of the final sector at Fuji.

Chicane is in the braking zone map.

http://private.fia.com/web/fia-publi...zones_FUJI.pdf

(From here: http://www.fia.com/en-GB/sport/champ...s/fia-wec.aspx)

[Salamus]

Originally Posted by Purist

Jean Todt doesn't have to cower per se, but if he doesn't tow the line adequately, Bernie will do his damndest to have him ousted at the soonest possible opportunity. To say that Bernie has no say in the matter is naive. He isn't supposed to, theoretically, but you better believe that he DOES have something to say on the matter!

No, not everyone wants to be in F1, but then again, among the manufacturers that are large enough to really matter, only Porsche and the American "Big Three" can be said to have virtually no chance of deciding to go to F1 at some point here. Audi isn't terribly likely to go into F1, but I wouldn't rule it out as vehemently as those other four. You never know with Toyota and Honda. Aston Martin, Jaguar, and a host of others are simply too small to have the resources needed for a real F1 campaign.

Among the long-standing automakers, only Porsche and Ferrari strike me as capable of having successful sportscar and F1 programs running concurrently; McLaren isn't exactly a long-standing automaker in terms of building series production cars for road use. So, that's 2 manufacturers and 3 racing operations total that I think would be up to that task.

Porsche have stated that F1 is not for them. When it comes to motorsport, Porsche concentrates mostly on one thing, the 911 and F1 definitely doesn't satisfy that.

I could see Audi at some point in the future becoming an engine supplier in F1. Though I don't think they will do what other manufacturers have in running their own team (like Toyota, Honda, BMW, Mercedes, etc...) And I think Toyota and Honda have learned their lesson when it comes to F1. They might become engine suppliers in the future but not full teams.

[Canada ALMS fan]

Originally Posted by Salamus

Porsche have stated that F1 is not for them. When it comes to motorsport, Porsche concentrates mostly on one thing, the 911 and F1 definitely doesn't satisfy that.

I believe Porsche is the only car company that makes a direct profit off racing, according to the Falken Team tech talk at PLM a couple of years ago. Look at how many cup cars they sell each year. They also noted Cup and GT3 cars are made on the regular production line. The RSR is made on the Carerra 4 wide unibody and is hand made in a separate, specialized facility. Hence the tripling of the sticker price.

[Purist]

Salamus, I did say in that second paragraph that I saw virtually zero chance of Porsche getting into F1. The third paragraph was simply my thoughts on which racing operations would have the potential to do both F1 and LMPs, and actually do them both well.

I was simply responding to TF110's post regarding who might want to race where and potential for powerplant crossover (between F1 and LMP), which I don't really see happening myself.

And yes, I honestly expected them to use that silly chicane at Fuji from the outset. Even without it though, it would have been a decent braking zone, except perhaps for an F1 car.

[TF110]

This isn't the thread to discuss all of this. So there's no reason to reply to all that. I'll just say what I said before. F1 isn't the end all be all. Not everyone wants to go to F1. There is no rule that says teams HAVE to use F1 engines in 2014, it's just a possibility. This isn't the early 90s, F1 isn't going to kill the WEC.

[Purist]

And I'll just say that history cautions us from making rosy assumptions like that. This is the FIA WEC after all.

[gregtummer]

Back on topic, how much time will be run in darkness?

[TF110]

FIA is the governing body, but FOM is Bernie. There's your difference. He does have influence, but I don't think it's as strong now as it once was. I believe the WEC is safe from F1 imposing upon it and taking the manufacturers away.

[racecontrol]

Originally Posted by rich07

So GT Open is more important then WEC? Wtf.....

..or maybe they believe Vilander could be a better help for Fisichella to gain the title in advance... ??!?!?

[Lorenzo S]

Originally Posted by gregtummer

Back on topic, how much time will be run in darkness?

Well, the race starts at 16:00 local, sunset is at 17:26 and dusk will be about 20 minutes. So about 4 hours and 15 minutes will be run in near darkness. I think

[Creep89]

Hmm.. Isn't the whole track covered with lamps?

[Lorenzo S]

Dunno, might be, doesn't stop it being night-time though!

[rich07]

Originally Posted by Creep89

Hmm.. Isn't the whole track covered with lamps?

Dont all the cars in the race have headlights? Just a random thought

[Salamus]

Originally Posted by Purist

Salamus, I did say in that second paragraph that I saw virtually zero chance of Porsche getting into F1. The third paragraph was simply my thoughts on which racing operations would have the potential to do both F1 and LMPs, and actually do them both well.

I was simply responding to TF110's post regarding who might want to race where and potential for powerplant crossover (between F1 and LMP), which I don't really see happening myself.

And yes, I honestly expected them to use that silly chicane at Fuji from the outset. Even without it though, it would have been a decent braking zone, except perhaps for an F1 car.

I know, I was just adding to it.

Originally Posted by Lorenzo S

Well, the race starts at 16:00 local, sunset is at 17:26 and dusk will be about 20 minutes. So about 4 hours and 15 minutes will be run in near darkness. I think

That is fantastic, should provide great action

[LeMans.pt]

This one is for all of you who are saying that Bernie has nothing to do with FIA:

Check out the composition of the FIA World Motor Sport Council, and explain me wtf is he doing there? The council is composed by representatives of some ASN, the CIK, FIA Manufacturers' Commission and... Mr. Bernie Ecclestone! Why? Why isn't there someone to represent the WTCC, the WRC... the WEC. Why the almighty F1 promoter has a seat in the most powerful body of the FIA, that decides on all things in motorsport!

If the WEC follows the success of Group C... oh, boy... he will use is influence to bring it down all over again!

Engine crossover between F1 and LMP1? Looks like the 90's all over again. The "idea" of the 3.5l was the same.

[deggis]

Originally Posted by LeMans.pt

Check out the composition of the FIA World Motor Sport Council, and explain me wtf is he doing there? The council is composed by representatives of some ASN, the CIK, FIA Manufacturers' Commission and... Mr. Bernie Ecclestone! Why? Why isn't there someone to represent the WTCC, the WRC... the WEC. Why the almighty F1 promoter has a seat in the most powerful body of the FIA, that decides on all things in motorsport!

F1 is FIA's most important championship. Clearly a lot of people here have a problem with this, including you , but it makes sense that someone represents the promoter of the most important championship.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIA_Wor..._Sport_Council

I might be wrong but I think WMSC mainly votes on things (that have been already prepared in other bodies). His vote is one of 26 votes. Or do you think it gets counts as 10 votes?

[LeMans.pt]

Originally Posted by deggis

F1 is FIA's most important championship. Clearly a lot of people here have a problem with this, including you , but it makes sense that someone represents the promoter of the most important championship.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIA_Wor..._Sport_Council

I might be wrong but I think WMSC mainly votes on things (that have been already prepared in other bodies). His vote is one of 26 votes. Or do you think it gets counts as 10 votes?

No, it doesn't make any sense... F1 or not. The promoter of one championship cannot have a seat where the future of other championships are discussed, championships that fight for the same sponsors, same manufacturers.

Problem with F1? I have a problem with any kind or form of dictatorship!