[WEC] Is the future Doom and Gloom?

[Acid09]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

Back in 2006 when Porsche joined the ALMS, it was not owned by VAG.

Come on, that's splitting hairs now. Who cares, it's two independent manufacturers that race each other, nobody cared when Citroen raced Peugeot in WRC back in the day.

[Fogelhund]

Besides, it was a joke, didn't realize people were so sensitive.

[Simmi]

Don't really know how I feel about it right now.

I dispute the idea that year one was a 'strike'. I'm not going to try and put on an overly-positive slant like you hear in some places but I think people need to be realistic about what to expect.

The P1 situation is a disappointment, but I also dispute Fogelhund's assertion that everything beyond that class is irrelevant. It's multi-class sportscar racing. That said, manufacturer involvement is crucial - there's no getting away from that.


Were we really going to see an influx of P1 entrants in 2013 - given the impending reg change and economic climate? No, we weren't. The Toyota situation is a massive disappointment to me. Worldwide 2013 is going to be a transition year ahead of the new regs. GT changes are also on the horizon (parking people like McLaren).

If (and it's a big IF) we can make it through this season to 2014 with three P1 manufacturers signed up - that's the holy grail right there. A year later we could get some sensible unified GT regs.

P2 has stayed fairly static from what I can see - despite people like John Dagys doom-mongering on twitter. GT will likely be better than last year in the WEC.

To borrow a concept from JAG on twitter - if we can get stable supporting series in the ELMS and AsLMS these will provide springboards to bring through new WEC entries.

[Rodger Davies]

Yes, it is doomed but it was always doomed and many amongst us said so from the moment they announced the idea.

As with anything like this, they had a number of blocks in place that allowed them to develop a single year - the only commitments they ever had were from that first year (and that's overlooking the fact that one of those blocks, Peugeot, didn't even show up). As with any investment, they counted on that growing, but never looked at the reality of it doing so.

So yes, it is doomed, but the real crime isn't the doom, it's the regional series that were mercilessly slain in order to make way for it.

Porsche are about to step up and start being the backbone factory effort of this championship it seems. Let's hope they get some competition or we're back to square one and asking Stephane Ratel for help again.

[Acid09]

Originally Posted by Rodger Davies

Let's hope they get some competition or we're back to square one and asking Stephane Ratel for help again.

Right, because if there's one guy who knows how to successfully run a world championship it has to be Stephane Ratel.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by Simmi

if we can get stable supporting series in the ELMS and AsLMS

I wanted to quote this bit, because I think it might be the first time ever we've seen these words used in the same sentence. Stable, ELMS and AsLMS. Stable?

I mean really, AsLMS really is a punchline isn't it? It's almost as good as Libra Racing program.

[HORNDAWG]

L.P.

[Aysedasi]

Your last word then Lane.....

Sorry, your last emoticon.....

It's all too easy to raise eyebrows to one set of answers and treat others as if the posters don't know what's going on.

It strikes me that the one thing that's for sure is that there are plenty of people hereabouts who think they they really know what's going to happen.... The reality of course is that none of us do.

For me, LMP or prototype racing has to be maintained in some shape or form and I'm with Acid09 that there is far too much doom and gloom and I'd far prefer that we keep it contained here rather than let it pervade virtually every other thread in Sportscar.

[HORNDAWG]

It strikes me that the one thing that's for sure is that there are plenty of people hereabouts who think they they really know what's going to happen.... The reality of course is that none of us do.

(I couldn't help myself Ayse )







L.P.

[Rodger Davies]

Originally Posted by Acid09

Right, because if there's one guy who knows how to successfully run a world championship it has to be Stephane Ratel.

Haha, right you are; I mean with regards to cars rather than promotion!

We've got a dying P1 field (have any been sold this year?), P2 that is becoming a Nissan spec series with a couple of chassis options, PC that is a spec series based upon ancient cars and GTE which certainly has its moments for promoting manufacturers but has a sagging second-hand market due to numerous national series preferring GT3 regs.

Personally, I'd happily watch a Le Mans entirely contested by GT cars if the teams/drivers were up to par, but I suspect most wouldn't be happy, including the ACO.

I don't agree with his championships or the GT3 concept, but with the exception of GT1 v2.0, Ratel has rules that people build cars to and that saved the day when Group C finally keeled over. That's all I meant

[dxk1]

Well, we survived the Mayan Calendar scare and the fiscal cliff so maybe things will start looking up and doom & gloom can go to the back of the room!
DK

[Mal]

2013 was always going to be a difficult year for P1 due to the rule changes next year. The real test of the WEC and particularly P1 will be from 2014 onwards.

I must admit, I do find the doom-mongers a bit tiresome

[TF110]

IMO, if Toyota stays for 2014, then it's somewhat of a success. Toyota's drivers seem to think they'll be there for 2014. But drivers only know so much. My thoughts are if 'hybrid' is important to Toyota, LMP1 in 2014 is the best way to showcase what you can do. 2014 F1 is getting close, but the relevance issue is a little road block. I don't pick and choose which to follow. I follow both, and hopefully with the rules changes, more interest follows.

[Lorenzo S]

Originally Posted by TF110

... Toyota's drivers seem to think they'll be there for 2014. But drivers only know so much. ...

I hate to add to all of this gloom but this really made me laugh. Remind me. When exactly did Peugeot inform it's drivers about its plans for 2012?

[TF110]

Originally Posted by Lorenzo S

I hate to add to all of this gloom but this really made me laugh. Remind me. When exactly did Peugeot inform it's drivers about its plans for 2012?

Toyota isn't Peugeot. Comparisons can be made, but I'm only stating what they are stating. Maybe you can chat with them, I hear a few of them used to be Peugeot drivers.

[Smurfer]

Could there be too many racing series around to draw reasonable crowds to every event.

Even motor racing purists who love just about every form of racing generally can't make it to every race they want and as such need to make a decision as to which to attend. Therefore crowds will be spread out over a number of series with very few drawing big numbers.

The holy grail for me would be to combine the proto type series with a number of F1 weekends. I don't think it would detract from the F1 spectacle per se and would potentially get greater viewing of the prototypes. I've never been to an F1 weekend in Europe so don't know the schedule though I'm guessing it would probably be difficult to fit these in with the other series over the weekend. No doubt they would need to be shorter races though that might not be a bad thing provided you still had the longer races at other times during the calendar.

Combining some of the GT series and really bringing the cars closer to road spec may help to reduce costs and increase competion amongst cars.

As an aside I think the entertainment aspect could be increased in between races by comparisons that demonstrate how special these cars are and how skilled the drivers.

I know the above is far fetched - I think it's my happy place.

[Simmi]

Personally I don't think the issues with the WEC are down to fan attendance. A lot of people like to pick up on fan numbers and bash them but it's clearly not the be all and end all.

[Thaw Daggerslash]

I think one of the biggest problems that the WEC has at the moment, is the poor health of the regional series.

Just look at LMP1. ELMS and the Asian series won't allow you to race LMP1 cars, and from 2014, neither will the new American series either. Sports car racing thrives on customer teams as much as anything - most manufacturers are only really going to be interesting in racing in LMP1 if they can sell customer cars to teams in regions around the world.

I think the current LMP1 formula would be much more attractive to Toyota or whoever if they cold sell a car in Europe, America and Asia and see it winning whilst they do the job in the World Championship. What better way to increase the reputation of your brand and sell road cars than having your race car win in all the different regional series around the world?

But the only place that you can race LMP1s in WEC which is some ways makes sense (if you want to watch the fastest prototypes race, watch WEC) but then equally I don't think it should come as much as a surprise when there are very few entries in LMP1 in the WEC. It is still too expensive for most manufacturers, and the only way to reduce some of that expenditure is to sell customer cars, which right now they don't have the possibility to.

Nothing lasts forever, and naturally the demand to race LMP1s will die out just like the demand to race ACO prototypes in America has died out. With that in mind, I think the ACO would be very wise to look to beyond LMP1, beyond 2014, and perhaps come up with some totally brand new regulations that will attract manufacturers and privateers to enter. Talk to the teams and manufacturers and find what they want, whether it is a more prototype based idea, or a more GT based idea.

But I maintain that whatever they do, unless they get a grip with the AsLMS, ELMS and American series, things will continue to be difficult. The WEC and Le Mans feeds off the strength of the regional series, and if that strength isn't there, it won't be long before they are struggling too.

[Fogelhund]

I agree with a number of Thaw's points.

a) poor health of the regional series being an issue for the WEC
b) chassis sales

To expand upon this, I've suggested from the outset that this was the wrong format, for what is essentially a world championship, to satisfy the demands on the manufacturers in P1. The nature of the WEC is one of a predatory series, taking potential entries from the ELMS and ALMS. The addition of a World Championship, should have been something to strengthen the LM brand, not weaken it. I stated from the beginning, that the WEC should have been a travelling P1 manufacturers road show, participating at ELMS, ALMS and AsLMS (cough) events. By participating in existing series races, they will increase the draws at those events, creating stronger events, more media, more attendance, etc. at these events. In addition, by restricting the WEC to the P1 manufacturers, you are keeping the regional events strong, by restricting where other entrants can run. The goal should be to strengthen the brand at all points, not to compete against each other. The ALMS certainly had it's issues before the WEC, but given Panoz' seemingly bitter comments, it appears to have been a factor in throwing in the towel.

Chassis/engine availability - We have 2014 new rules chassis coming for P1. Who is going to bother building such things when the only place you can run them is WEC? This is not a large enough market for the boutique manufacturers to make a profit. It isn't healthy to see the options for the privateers disappear...

While people can complain about dooms sayers, and not knowing the future, I'd suggest what is happening was rather predictable. The P1 chassis solution is going to have to be allowing P2 chassis run as P1, with some sort of minor modifications to allow them to be almost competitive.. obviously more powerful engines. That and creating a system, where the manufacturers are required to sell chassis to privateers.

Of course they get to hit the reset button with the 2014 rules, but the reality is America is completely out of the picture now for years to come. We'll see if this can get on it's feet without that market available.

[Speed-King]

I think the current LMP1 formula would be much more attractive to Toyota or whoever if they cold sell a car in Europe, America and Asia and see it winning whilst they do the job in the World Championship. What better way to increase the reputation of your brand and sell road cars than having your race car win in all the different regional series around the world?

Not sure I agree here... even when one could run P1s in ELMS and ALMS the big manufacturers weren't really keen on selling customer cars - part of it is probably the high technical level that makes it impossible to run them without a healthy dose of factory support, necessitating the manufacturers to set up an elaborate support structure for these cars and taking away personal from the main team.

And then - how expensive would customer cars have to be to make financial sense for the manufacturers? I mean, Audi has a budget somewhere between 50 and 100 million € per year. A couple of customer cars, even if they can sell them for 2 million a piece (HPD costs 1.5 mil) are only ever gonna be a small drop in the bucket and in the end probably not worth the hassle.

I think that the Audi - Peugeot rivalry has pushed the factory P1s so far into F1 territory in terms of technology and sophistication that there is just no realistic way for someone like Lola or HPD to compete with them on a budget that is a whole magnitude lower. And similarly no one short of a factory team (or a factory team in waiting like Oreca) can even hope to run a factory car successfully.

[fiend540]

My biggest beef with the WEC is their choice of venues and the scheduling. I understand they want to increase the global appeal but I want to see the best sportscars racing on the best tracks. Call it selfish or whatever but I don't care about the races being held in "important" markets for the Manufactures or boring new tracks like the one in Austin. They have Alienated me as a sports car fan, and outside Lemans there is really no reason for me to put in the effort to try and watch the other races (and it is an effort finding streams and fitting them within my daily life). Hopefully the Alms/grandam merger produces something worth watching.

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

I agree with a number of Thaw's points.

a) poor health of the regional series being an issue for the WEC
b) chassis sales

To expand upon this, I've suggested from the outset that this was the wrong format, for what is essentially a world championship, to satisfy the demands on the manufacturers in P1. The nature of the WEC is one of a predatory series, taking potential entries from the ELMS and ALMS. The addition of a World Championship, should have been something to strengthen the LM brand, not weaken it. I stated from the beginning, that the WEC should have been a travelling P1 manufacturers road show, participating at ELMS, ALMS and AsLMS (cough) events. By participating in existing series races, they will increase the draws at those events, creating stronger events, more media, more attendance, etc. at these events. In addition, by restricting the WEC to the P1 manufacturers, you are keeping the regional events strong, by restricting where other entrants can run. The goal should be to strengthen the brand at all points, not to compete against each other. The ALMS certainly had it's issues before the WEC, but given Panoz' seemingly bitter comments, it appears to have been a factor in throwing in the towel.

Chassis/engine availability - We have 2014 new rules chassis coming for P1. Who is going to bother building such things when the only place you can run them is WEC? This is not a large enough market for the boutique manufacturers to make a profit. It isn't healthy to see the options for the privateers disappear...

While people can complain about dooms sayers, and not knowing the future, I'd suggest what is happening was rather predictable.

I could not agree more!




L.P.

[Maelochs]

The only alteration I might suggest to Fogelhound's excellent post is to add a GTE class to the LMP1 class in the travellng WEC road show he describes.

That way factories can support the regional series by selling copies of their GT cars, and still go all-out in the fight for a World GT title. I think this is an area of manufacturer involvement too good to miss.

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

The only alteration I might suggest to Fogelhound's excellent post is to add a GTE class to the LMP1 class in the travellng WEC road show he describes.

That way factories can support the regional series by selling copies of their GT cars, and still go all-out in the fight for a World GT title. I think this is an area of manufacturer involvement too good to miss.

Not much difference in that, with what is going on now.





L.P.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

The only alteration I might suggest to Fogelhound's excellent post is to add a GTE class to the LMP1 class in the travellng WEC road show he describes.

That way factories can support the regional series by selling copies of their GT cars, and still go all-out in the fight for a World GT title. I think this is an area of manufacturer involvement too good to miss.

Except that the manufacturers don't even care now about the WEC. Keep them in the regional series, for the strength of those series.