Le Mans-style racing: almost the last bastion of innovation?

[bil588]

http://www.americanlemans.com/news/Article.aspx?ID=2811

"So I'm skeptical of what we see today, namely the final assault of the one-design philosophy on the top ranks of the sport. In Formula 1, the FIA's attempt to introduce stricter rules to cut costs and encourage green technologies at the same time exhibits some of the typical pitfalls of top-down government policy-making. Champ Car has officially gone down the 'spec' car route, and the IRL has done so unofficially. NASCAR's effort to update its technology with the Car of Tomorrow looks likely to introduce even greater technical uniformity.

Le Mans-style sports car racing has emerged as almost the last bastion of innovation, with the success of Audi's turbo diesel in last year's 24 Hours drawing Peugeot back to Le Mans, and several carmakers exploring hybrid-powered projects. It's no accident that this type of racing has attracted more new factory teams than any other over the last couple of seasons."

[Aysedasi]

Here, here! And may it ever be so.

[WouterM]

What I don't get is how Diesel is marketed as a way forward. It's different from petrol, but still uses the very same oil as a basis. There need to be some major rule changes to make electro-hybrid engined cars a viable optioned. Zytek for one would really like to build a hybrid car, but they don't think it will be anywhere near competitive and the ACO has refused to lean to their direction on several occasions now. Building a diesel racing might be an innovation, but by no means the revolution some people want you to believe it is.

[JAG]

I'd put money on the Acura/Honda P1 being some form of hybrid.

The ACO have always said they will embrace new ideas and technology, a little different to other formulas were innovation is legislated out.

[WouterM]

Originally Posted by JAG

The ACO have always said they will embrace new ideas and technology, a little different to other formulas were innovation is legislated out.

I think the Zytek people will be the first to disagree with that statement.

[AU N EGL]

Seems to me I rember ( showing my age ) that their was an old indy car, Sponsored by STP, ( Andy Granetilli ) that ran as a turbine engine. It was so different that it was banned a few years latter.

There are plenty or solor electric hybrid car races, they just dont go faster then 40 mph ( down hill with a strong tail wind)

Diesel engines are a great addition to motorsports, just allow the petrol cars to have the same power abitlites.

[Purist]

If increased use of diesel versus gasoline occurs though, with the better mileage of deisel, it could make a dent in consumption, which is certainly a step in the right direction.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by WouterM

I think the Zytek people will be the first to disagree with that statement.

The Zytek people don't have the money to back up their ambitions.

We saw what Taurus did with a diesel, then Audi gave it their best shot.

Same regs, but one was a back marker, one a dominent race winner.

[Trev Campbell]

Didn't a team run at Le Mans a few years ago with a beetroot based fuel ???? Do the ACo still encourage this sort of activity

[Bob Riebe]

Originally Posted by bil588

[COLOR=black

Le Mans-style sports car racing has emerged as almost the last bastion of innovation, with the success of Audi's turbo diesel in last year's 24 Hours drawing Peugeot back to Le Mans, and several carmakers exploring hybrid-powered projects. It's no accident that this type of racing has attracted more new factory teams than any other over the last couple of seasons."[/COLOR]

You are correct, when the ACO boys wrote the rules, they made sure the rules were tilted in favour of certain concerns, so said same concerns would come and play.

.The ACO is little different fromt the others, the diesel is what it is ONLY, because new contrived rules were written to make it competitive, or actually give it an edge.
It is worse than dummying all down to the lowest common denominator, it is lowering all except the chosen ones, down to less than a common denominator.

The variety in the GT classses is nice, but then the FIA is heads and tails better than the ACO, at their own ballgame; although give the FIA some time , they can grab defeat from the jaws of victory in a heartbeat, but until then they got their act together.

It seems the market for rose colored glasses is booming.

[duke_toaster]

Originally Posted by Trev Campbell

Didn't a team run at Le Mans a few years ago with a beetroot based fuel ???? Do the ACo still encourage this sort of activity

Ethanol fuels have been used.

[GTfour]

It was ofcourse the Nasamax Judd :http://www.nasamax.com/racing/en/gallery_1.asp

[zac510]

Originally Posted by Bob Riebe

It seems the market for rose colored glasses is booming.

Indeed among spectators! I often wonder how many forum posters - particularly those on some F1 forums - go to club or national level motorsport in their country. I imagine not many do, thus they're quite in the dark about a lot of innovation, variety, engineering and close racing that occurs in those series and classes.

Which leads to another point. Innovation doesn't necessarily have to have sound engineering principles or a lap time advantage (although both would help), it merely has to be different and new. By this definition you can find it in any class.

[TRuss]

The diesel engine was orginally designed to run on vegetable oil. I think peanut oil specifically. Ethanol is a great powersource. Panoz had a hybrid several years ago. I've often thought a new Group C style formula would be a great way to liberate the rules and to see some new stuff out there.

Also. The turbine powered indy car. The "whoosh car" was banned because it didn't make the proper race car noise (sounds familiar huh?). Of course that wasn't the official reason, but it's the real reason.

[chewymonster]

Bio diesel is 4 times more energy productive than bio ethanol from corn. So diesel wins out once again here.

[Bob Riebe]

Originally Posted by chewymonster

Bio diesel is 4 times more energy productive than bio ethanol from corn. So diesel wins out once again here.

The farmers could grow their own fuel; the late Carl Shafer was one of the farmers involved in crop based diesel fuel (it was not called bio until the rags kept calling it that) on his 7,000 acre farm.

Their is a web site with the test results, which list the good and bad, the bad main being lower mileage.

It is still interesting that a racing farmer was instrumental in early work.

Bob

[Aysedasi]

To be (largely - but not entirely) flippant, I'm happy with alternative fuels - I just wish the engines still made the same noise........

[roachy101]

i'm pretty sure there'll be some bio-ethanol cars in Le Mans this year

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by roachy101

i'm pretty sure there'll be some bio-ethanol cars in Le Mans this year

Dont think the ACO has allowed any this year.

Only two fuels, both supplyed by Shell, are allowed. One petrol one deisel.

I am wondering if the Pug will be able to use there Total deisel fuel vs the Mandated Shell diesel fuel.

http://www.lemans.org/sport/sport/re...to2007_gb.html

[old man]

Take a look at this, as on "Sportscars and Global Warming"

http://cde.cerosmedia.com/ef900486dc...fee9f92635.cde

[JHamilton]

"The lack of technical interest and competition runs the risk of alienating the segment of the racing audience which cares as much – or more – about the cars as the drivers. They are among the hardest core racing enthusiasts, and a larger percentage of the fan base than many realize."

Hey, that's me!

[JAG]

Originally Posted by Bob Riebe

You are correct, when the ACO boys wrote the rules, they made sure the rules were tilted in favour of certain concerns, so said same concerns would come and play.

.The ACO is little different fromt the others, the diesel is what it is ONLY, because new contrived rules were written to make it competitive, or actually give it an edge.
It is worse than dummying all down to the lowest common denominator, it is lowering all except the chosen ones, down to less than a common denominator.

The variety in the GT classses is nice, but then the FIA is heads and tails better than the ACO, at their own ballgame; although give the FIA some time , they can grab defeat from the jaws of victory in a heartbeat, but until then they got their act together.

It seems the market for rose colored glasses is booming.

Seeing as the FIA adopted ACO GT regs, and have have screwed up every sportscar series they've ever controled, I'm not sure how you come to the conclusion they are supperior to the ACO.

We are about to enter, IMO, a golden era in Le Mans sportscar racing, I envisage this era will be every bit as good as Group C, with the added benefit of being relevant to road car technology.

I don't know who's wearing the rose coloured glasses, sportscar racing was pretty crappy for much of the seventies and 90's, other than the flash in the pan GT1's.

The quality of teams and manufactuers, in both national and international sportscar racing, has never been higher.

The one series that is having issues, the ALMS, happens to be the one that has viered from the tried and tested ACO formula.

[Bob Riebe]

Originally Posted by JAG

Seeing as the FIA adopted ACO GT regs, and have have screwed up every sportscar series they've ever controled, I'm not sure how you come to the conclusion they are supperior to the ACO.

We are about to enter, IMO, a golden era in Le Mans sportscar racing, I envisage this era will be every bit as good as Group C, with the added benefit of being relevant to road car technology.

I don't know who's wearing the rose coloured glasses, sportscar racing was pretty crappy for much of the seventies and 90's, other than the flash in the pan GT1's.

The quality of teams and manufactuers, in both national and international sportscar racing, has never been higher.

The one series that is having issues, the ALMS, happens to be the one that has viered from the tried and tested ACO formula.

I have no love for the GT rules used by the FIA or ACO, but ignoring that and taking the racing at face value, the FIA has the better show.

Road racing in the seventie was incredibly good, in the US anyway.
You see it from Euro point of view, and I see it from a US point of view.
Over here it is now---just plain pathetic.

As far as the sports racers, or P cars, are concerned, if you are happy with how things are, good for you; they have been a class of less interest to me with the rule change that ended the Ferrari-Porsche battle thirty seven years ago, so the French could be more than also-rans.

I did find the production based group C, extremely interesting, but the FIA did that in.

Sports car racing started self-destructing in the nineties, and while there were a few peaks, it on its best day, is growing sideways.

This "quality" item that seems to be used to rationalize that current status---in all the years I have been interested in racing, I have never seen racers that had quality problems, anywhere, ever.
Thin fields yes, but I found no lacking in their quality.

Bob

[bil588]

Greg Pickett on Grand-Am DPs

It's been an 18-month process for Pickett to transition from Trans-Am to the ALMS. After Trans-Am folded at the end of 2005, Pickett was left without a place to race and tried his hand at Daytona Prototypes in 2006. He chose to run his XCyto Pontiac-Riley at Laguna Seca and Sears Point, two tracks convenient for his northern California homebase. But the relatively low-powered cars left Greg wanting more.

"When I got the Grand-Am car I wasn't sure how that was going to go,” Pickett said. “I have three street cars, all with V12 twin-turbo engines, and they're all faster than the DP car, and it was kind of boring. We did okay, but at the end of it, it's really a race car that doesn't do anything very well. So after that I did the Trans-Am reunion in Kansas where we came second, and I really enjoyed the 700 hp again, so it was obvious that it wasn't me - I still enjoyed the speed."

http://www.the-paddock.net/content/view/241368/49/

[GTfour]

@bil588,

That is such a telling piece of commentary from this Greg Pickett!
Nowadays one can buy a Corvette Z06,tune the engine just a bit and it´ll be boasting more pony´s then the racecars! AND the engine will go a lot further then the one´s in the C6 R´s...